Is it too early for a post mortem?

[Appalonia]

So, now that America has categorically rejected transgender ideology, which I do think will affect the rest of the world, is now the time to ascertain HOW did so many institutions, including the Democratic and Labour Parties get so completely bamboozled by this ideology? Which is crazy, not based in material reality, disadvantages half of the population, has physically damaged thousands of young people, and that they didn't think that people would see through it?

I know a lot of people dislike Matt Walsh, but his documentary, What is a Woman, was jaw dropping! We must NEVER let this dangerous idiocy happen again ( and yes I know it's not over...)

OK, then we're irrational, hateful, and lacking in compassion for not agreeing that males can be female if they claim to be. Next?

You disregard everything I say that doesn't fit into one of the practiced talking points, demand I pretend a lifetime's worth of lived experience doesn't exist so you don't have to face the psyche-shattering horror of ever seeing a nasty original-sin infested trans woman in the toilets, accuse me of manipulative hyperbole when I describe the reality I live every day, and then say I'm refusing to listen.

I do listen, every day, to the many other women in my life whose opinions I trust and use as a moral compass and guide. I'm listening here as well but all I am hearing is the recitation of axiomatic thought patterns against the only available punchbag with the patience to even try.

I don't talk about the steady downward social trends over the last decade - that have seen a surface-level bastardisation of radfem ideological principles become mainstream conservative queer-bashing rhetoric - because I like playing oppression fantasy what-if. I talk about them because I saw them about to happen, then saw them happen, and am now trying to stop them from getting worse.

But if you only "trust the opinions" of those prepared to pretend you are female, you are getting a biased view of women's opinions.

We can feel genuine pity for your impossible dream, but nobody can make you female.

Your lifetime of lived experience was as a boy/man, Butterfly
No amount of wishing on rainbows will change that.

No, you are not listening. This : so you don't have to face the psyche-shattering horror of ever seeing a nasty original-sin infested trans woman in the toilets, is a perfect example of your lack of being able to hear what women and girls are saying.

Butterfly - looks like I’m not the only person wanting an answer to this question - or an explanation of what you actually meant

For reference, I don’t see a “nasty original-sin infested trans woman” in the toilets/changing room - I see a man. Given that men commit almost all sexual crimes, and I’m obviously intending to be in a state of undress, you may be surprised to hear that feels really unsafe. No consideration of original sin etc (or other hyperbole) required

@ButterflyHatched

I read back a few pages to try and catch up with this thread before making any comment. I do have some sympathy for anyone who feels their life is continually going through a hard time. I also think if you want to get less antagonistic replies here you're going to have to understand something about the women here.
The actions of the Trans Rights Activists ( not necessarily any given trans person ) have been very agressive and demanding. Consent from women hasn't been asked for, negotiated, or even cared about. The TRA way has been demands and violence towards women. It is telling that males behave in a very male testosterone driven way while claiming to be women. There's nothing that convinces a woman of trans acceptance in their space quite as much as threats and violence. You know which one of the male abuser trifecta is missing from threats and violence? Sexual assault. Where two are, the third is never far behind.
I'm not talking about you, I know nothing about you. I'm talking about the authoritarian agressive sledgehammer that TRAs chose to bring to smash down the door to the women's changing rooms. They chose to set that tone in dealing with women, and it shouldn't come as a shock that a lot of women reject that. All you have to do is at least understand why so many women are pissed off with that.
This is compounded by the trans community accepting/condoning through inaction the very bad apples. Convicted double rapist Isla Bryson who wanted to serve his time in a women's prison. His mum was in the news yesterday for saying he's lying when he described being transgender from age four. Jenny Watson trying to set up a regular lesbian dating event having to deal with a bloke in a purple latex outfit with an obviously visible erection. This is just insane. There is no defending this, these are sexual predators trying to game the TWAW system. No woman wants to be around these nutjobs, yet these nutjobs very very much want to be around women to use them as sexual props for their fantasies. And the trans community's response to all this? One of two things either crickets and tumbleweeds, or accusations of tranphobia. Literally just chuck the nutters out of your community. Reject and disown them. For as long as the trans community actively covers for these nutjobs they belong to you. You may not be them, but they are a part of your community.
If your community want to improve your relations with women you are going to have to do the work, be responsible for what happens under your umbrella, talk to women like human beings, actually listen to them, and stop trying to take by force. And that's why you're having a bit of a rough ride here. You've come to the place where all the women who feels angry about how they have been treated, and you have to understand why they feel angry to engage. It's like going to a chip shop and wondering why so many items on the menu come with chips.

It really is clear Gail. When a male person writes so you don't have to face the psyche-shattering horror of ever seeing a nasty original-sin infested trans woman in the toilets, that male person shows that all they hear is 'blah blah blah, transwoman in the toilets, blah blah blah'.

The reality is that women are speaking about all male people. And treating all male people equally in law for safeguarding considerations.

However, those who don't want to hear this will just hear this so you don't have to face the psyche-shattering horror of ever seeing a nasty original-sin infested trans woman in the toilets!

Which is just more of the denied emoting. The catastrophising, emotionally manipulative, hyperbolic cognitive distortions.

@ButterflyHatched
Your posts seem a bit sad. I do feel sympathy for you even if I disagree with you. I genuinely hope you can find out what it is that makes you happy because it feels like you might not be. Sending positive vibes your way.

What caught my eye originally and made me respond to you was this:
I am not those creatures; I have vanishingly little in common with them beyond some DNA and a few years of miserable conscious existence while society tried to hammer me into a shape that I never fit and had no interest in fitting.

I think in this you might find a part of your answer. Society tried to hammer me into a shape, you need to understand it is you who have been doing all the hammering to change your shape not society.

I don’t think I need an Aston datascraper to see which responses are linguistically coded in the sex class opposite to that claimed. (If that’s a phrase)

plus we get a bonus edition of ‘use of the service humans as free therapy.‘

I'm not saying that; believe whatever you want so long as it doesn't harm others.

I don't particularly give a shit about definitions. I don't believe in souls or essences; I don't consider the arbitrary classification of the statistical trends of complex chaotic systems to be worth marginalising minority groups over.

I used to think it was ridiculous that all this effort was being spent arguing over where people piss and what they call themselves. I was worried about the potential for reactionary swingback, but it all seemed silly in comparison with what I grew up facing.

I used to dismiss the concerns of other trans people, historians, journalists and political analysts over the direction that things are trending. It isn't really going to get that bad, is it?

It's now 2024. The richest man on earth is piggybacking on the presidency of a convicted felon and rapist to become the second most powerful man on earth. He has, in his own words, dedicated his life to eradicating the 'woke mind virus' out of pure spite over the trans daughter he alienated so completely that she cut off all contact.

This isn't an edgy countercultural punk movement fighting a plucky underdog resistance against The Man. This is about to become the active policy of the most powerful nation on earth.

Plenty has been said already about how these men got to where they are because a coalition of evangelists and misogynists cynically conjured the ghost of second-wave feminism and exploited it as election rhetoric - and this forum has long been infamous and well documented in the media as one of this neoreactionary movement's recruiting grounds. You may align yourself with it or you may not; you cannot deny, however, the impact of this place. Next month's headlines can often be found here today.

The US is about to make all of its 15,000 trans service personnel unemployed. They have made their plans to ban transition very explicitly clear - not just for minors, but for anyone.

The anti-trans movement's figureheads consider the existence of every trans person 'a huge problem for a sane society'. That transness must be 'morally mandated out of existence'.

Please believe what you want; by all means please keep on claiming it's all just silliness and hyperbole and sneering until the very end. By the time it comes, I suspect the fake news engines will have made it impossible to believe anything you read anyway.

Maybe you'll find yourself occasionally wondering where all those nasty belligerent demanding overdramatic trans people went. Wondering why it's so quiet.

I don't know about you, but I really don't give a shit whether my obituary says she or he on it.

Believe whatever you want but please, please stop being a willing instrument of hate.

Oh god stop.

you don't have to face the psyche-shattering horror of ever seeing a nasty original-sin infested trans woman in the toilets

We see a man. A man who is statistically a danger to us, as he has already transgressed the boundary of entering a female space.

Take it up with the medics who lied and told you that entering women's spaces would be part of your 'journey' not the women who say 'no' to you.

It is absolutely crackers that any of us ever had to spend one minute of our time telling men that female spaces are not for them. Go sue the medics rather than give us the overblown hyperbole drama.

Note: if we had said that trans women were 'nasty original sin-infested' we'd have been banned for it. But again, different rules apply.

I don't particularly give a shit about definitions

We get that. We very much get that.

Oy, the drama.

I used to think it was ridiculous that all this effort was being spent arguing over where people piss and what they call themselves. I was worried about the potential for reactionary swingback, but it all seemed silly in comparison with what I grew up facing.

Well that’s just it, isn’t it? You think your personal woes are more important than any woman’s need for a single sex space. You’re self-absorbed and selfish.

"I used to think it was ridiculous that all this effort was being spent arguing over where people piss"

yep. And here is just one of the significant differences between the female and male life experiences. Female people DON'T just use the toilet to piss.

What do women do in toilets?

I spent many days, often 2-3 times a week, where I had a stroller or pram jammed in the door because I had no one but myself to do shopping. And I didn’t need the change table so didn’t use the accessible toilet if there was one.

That included at period time with flooding periods and hormonal diarrhoea.
Particulary after pregnancy. Often with a crying infant.

I have also had to take my wheelchair bound elderly mother to a normal cubicle when there was no accessible toilet available. Where I couldn’t leave her to sit without assistance to remove the wheelchair to lock the door .

I, too, have washed clothing out, and at times had to unbutton shirts to get them dry from baby vomit, or leaking breasts.

I have even had to do this at work when I was stuck in an event for hours and could not leave to express so ended up with significant leakage. More than once. Because breastfeeding women work too.

And got dressed in work toilets for various reasons.

And cried there and comforted others. And hid there from men who wouldn’t take no for an answer.

I have had friends lose their pregnancies in the female toilets and needed help from other women there.

I know I am not the only one because several times this past year I have come across half stripped women in the toilets while out dealing with similar issues.

The solution is also not demanding gender neutral toilets. It is not fully enclosed cubicles. A female taking up a cubicle to wash and dry clothes is putting an undue time demand on those waiting to use that cubicle.

There are many reasons that women do not want males in the toilet.

However, the female toilets have never been used just to ‘pee’.

And I don't want any male person in the female toilets, even the ones who are someone's lovely fucking friends.

I used to think it was ridiculous that all this effort was being spent arguing over where people piss and what they call themselves.

And therein lies the rub. Despite it being patiently and extensively explained to you with evidence you still cannot or will not see female people as deserving of consideration, privacy, safety and dignity in spaces and services that are there for their use.

You just don't, won't or can't contemplate female people having something they need and want which is free entirely from males.

Female people were never asked or consulted regarding including male people in the definition of woman, never asked or consulted regarding expanding the bandwith of womanhood to include males, never asked or consulted regarding male people having access to female spaces, services and sports. Our consent was never sought and never given.

Imposition by misogynistic patriarchy was the order of the day.

Why? Does the truth make you uncomfortable about your choices? Annoyed that you were transparently lied to, you fell for it without fact-checking, and the country is now demonstrably worse off while still not in any way free from the supposed tyranny of Brussels?

"truth"?

No. The utter piffle you are spouting is nauseating.

Tou talk talk talk at us, you don't listen. And you spout a load of (what I assume you think sounds intellectual/academic) tripe.

I'm no longer engaging with your waffle

Read the literal text of Project 2025

15,000 people fired for existing.

Demonstrably lifesaving treatment banned offhand while knowing full well what the devastating consequences will be.

'A huge problem for a sane society'
'Morally mandated out of existence'

You sure got to own the evil transes though, and making sure they're sad and unsafe while pissing is what is really important.

Which part of what I have said was a lie?

Speaking of lies, shall we investigate where that 350 million a week is? What happened to it? Why was it never mentioned again?

@ButterflyHatched if you labour under the illusion that the only reason that women use loos is to urinate and defecate then you have no idea of the female condition.

Shall I pedantically list all the experiences I've had of female toilets over the years that demonstrate how essential they have been to my life and safety as well? Nah, what's the fucking point. You'll just say none of it was real because it was experienced by a male.

None of that debunks the idea that you place your personal woes above any women’s requirements.

15,000 people fired for existing

Hasn't happened and not what is proposed.

Demonstrably lifesaving treatment banned offhand while knowing full well what the devastating consequences will be

It has been demonstrated that it is NOT lifesaving treatment.

You sure got to own the evil transes though, and making sure they're sad and unsafe while pissing is what is really important.

You keep repeating that phrase “evil transes.” Why? Only you have said that. Are you Gollum? It’s not about “transes” it’s about males. You. In women’s spaces. You started off posting trying to pass yourself off as a “reasonable” trans activist but you’re just no different to all the other men’s rights activists.