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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
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47
CassieMaddox · 08/10/2024 13:26

Datun · 08/10/2024 12:56

And yet, as a feminist, I've only ever seen you post negative comments about women.

Loads of them. All of them connected to KJK.

Well that probably says something about the threads we are both on.
I'd really appreciate it if you stopped the comments. I'm polite enough not to do the same to you. Play the ball, not the player.

CassieMaddox · 08/10/2024 13:29

Helleofabore · 08/10/2024 13:12

Readers Notes:

The articles that are being posted to support the constant misrepresentation of this MP's views on abortion, are from 2022.

The MP has since stated in a nationalwide television interview that she is not interested in campaigning to change abortion law. Plus the MP's own meeting recording has also now been published in the court case where she has stated she is not interested in campaigning for changing abortion laws.

Politicians can hold personal beliefs on a topic and not campaign for making any changes of the law because they recognise the right of people to make their own choices. It is called democracy.

www.skynews.com.au/australia-news/politics/moira-deeming-reveals-the-terms-of-her-liberal-party-suspension-and-why-she-will-continue-fighting-for-womens-rights/news-story/92b78c4d05937f73d0ef34e257645497

Why is the mention of a politicians pro-life view on a thread in feminism causing you to be so defensive?
Many feminists see womens bodily autonomy as non negotiable and would consider pro life views controversial. Similar to how many feminists would consider pro trans views controversial.

Datun · 08/10/2024 13:30

CassieMaddox · 08/10/2024 13:26

Well that probably says something about the threads we are both on.
I'd really appreciate it if you stopped the comments. I'm polite enough not to do the same to you. Play the ball, not the player.

I am playing the ball, Cassie. The content of what you write.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 08/10/2024 13:31

For you @BabaYagasHouse and I agree, it's a great statement:

Update on my non-attendance at Hagglers Corner on Saturday 28th Sept.
I was informed via a third party I was not welcome on the premises due to their 'safe space' policy, which I have requested but not yet recieved.

Apologies to those who turned up believing myself to be playing.
Hagglers chose to not inform the public prior to the event. For reasons best known to themselves.
Apparently, a young woman,stranger to me, has been attempting to smear my name and reputation in Sheffield.

Haggler's seem to have based their actions upon the word of this individual, or individuals aligned with them.

I have no interest in giving this behaviour much time. I’m too old, ugly and black and have dealt with much nastier behaviour over the years.

Haggler’s have made no attempt to engage with me in any professional manner prior to cancelling me the day before the event, despite me having supported and played their venue multiple times.

To date, I have not received a single call.

The issue for them seems to be that on 21st September, I attended a ‘Let Women Speak’ event. This was hosted by a registered political party
The Party of Women who have a candidate in Sheffield as well as Nationally.

This gathering of mainly Mothers and Grandmothers was initially well attended, but following the assault of 2 women, it thinned out, as some women understandably, feared for their safety, from Men.
This took place with Police presence in Barkers Pool. Court case pending.

The Women gathered stand for Women’s sex-based rights, whether in public spaces, the workplace, toilets, the NHS, sports, jobs opportunities, scholarships, rape crisis centres etc. A worthy and righteous cause in my opinion.
The rights which were fought for by generations of Women are under attack, sadly not just by men, but other women.

A crowd turned up to protest and abuse the gathering at Let Women Speak consisting of ‘Black Lives Matter’ and ‘Free Palestine’ antifa types, using these bolt on causes to try and legitimise their nonsense (who are the fascists?) and proceeded to scream, shout, jeer at and yes assault 2 Women.

I also had verbal abuse hurled at me and told I was on the wrong side, I expect because I am black, as apparently, we need to be told by the anti-racists how to behave and what /who to support. Make of that what you will.

The event had been labelled by the screaming mob, an Anti-Trans event and the attendees as Nazi’s, fascists etc. In reality it was mostly Women, many of whom have been involved in social justice movements, and caring for others most of their lives.
But It seems all that is needed to get people to abuse, shout over and defend the assault of two of them, is to call them predictable and abusive terms, which unbelievably, others take as gospel without digging any deeper.

For those in that crowd, you did succeed in scaring some Women, and those speaking about their abuse, safety of Women in the NHS etc could barely be heard. So, you did succeed in silencing Women. Do you wear that badge with honour? Sadly, I suspect you do.

Some Women didn’t attend due to fears it would affect their employment. They were right, as that is what this crowd do. They attack, shout, attempt to impact employment and reputation – doesn’t sound so righteous to me, but that is who they are.
Of course, I became that person for some unknown ill-informed group – an easy target for them.

Haggler’s based my cancellation on the word of such people.

You see, they have a ‘Safe Space Policy’ which apparently my presence would violate.
A ’Safe Space’ for whom is the question?
For me, a long timer of the independent club and music scene, probably older than most attempting to attack my reputation, there is only a need for a safe space for Women in a venue.
Women need a place of refuge to escape, creeps, drunks, and yes possible predators in a club or bar. We all knew this once, but apparently that space isn’t inclusive and now has to allow men to have access.

Young Women will be most impacted by such policies, as they have yet to find their voices, so it is for Men such as me and Women such as those at ‘Let Women Speak’ to fight for their safety in the absence of reality in some quarters.

Hold the line!

I do not fear cancellation, as it is the default for the weak minded. I do fear however for the safety of Women and girls. So, I will not bow down to the baying mob, who no doubt would have thrown stones at suffragettes, and cheered on the burning of women accused of witchcraft.

I stand with Women, straight, gay or Bi and their right to Women only spaces and events and will continue to do so.

And for those who, despite knowing me, my history and reputation did not see fit to do me the courtesy of calling me directly to discuss the event. We can consider any relationship we had terminated.

If I were to go along with this, just to get along, like so many do, I would be failing in my duty to my Mother, My Wife, Daughter, My sisters, nieces, aunties and the oppressed women of the world.

So do your worst, I will do my best.

Any men fighting for their right to be in Women only spaces, are the very men that must be kept out of those spaces.

Unapologetically,
Winston Hazel.

LongtailedTitmouse · 08/10/2024 13:31

“Branch members should know better than to preselect a candidate like Moira Deeming,” Barry said.

So a ‘leading commentator’ objects to branch members democratically selecting a candidate he doesn’t like… Not a great supporter of democracy then?

Helleofabore · 08/10/2024 13:32

Datun · 08/10/2024 12:28

Did you notice that the main point of that article was about her gender identity views? A gay MP criticised her view on gender identity.

It's extraordinary that this specific issue gets men so riled up.

They just can't get their head around the fact that women are saying no - without permission, without approval, without caving to all sorts of pre conditions and without being humble and saying er, reely sorry about this, but would you mind awfully...

Women just say no, full stop, doesn't really compute.

It really is extraordinary as you say.

And yet, articles that denounce a woman's legally held view, that female people's needs should be prioritised where there are negative impacts from prioritising gender over sex, are posted on a feminist board in an attempt to discredit that woman's view as being extreme. There really seems to be some disconnect here.

We are to believe a male MP's view (from 2022) that a female MP's view on gender identity is extreme and should be still considered so in light of all the discussion around the world since then.

Helleofabore · 08/10/2024 13:32

LongtailedTitmouse · 08/10/2024 13:31

“Branch members should know better than to preselect a candidate like Moira Deeming,” Barry said.

So a ‘leading commentator’ objects to branch members democratically selecting a candidate he doesn’t like… Not a great supporter of democracy then?

Pretty much.... I don't think the articles being posted quite convey the points that the poster intended.

InvisibleBuffy · 08/10/2024 13:38

Good grief. I haven't really followed this story so thought I'd get dug into the threads and caught up, but the derailing appears to have reached new and impressive heights from a certain poster.
Let Women Speak, indeed.

Helleofabore · 08/10/2024 13:40

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Do you or do you not agree with her that the needs of female people need to be prioritised over gender when sex matters, and that children require the very best medical care rather than affirming only ?

This question mattered because you have posted an article where this is the main point being raised. Do you agree with Andrew Olexander?

And considering it was from 2022, and there has been a lot of information available about Lia Thomas, Gavin Hubbard and the Gender clinics, do you think that the majority would now agree with Andrew Olexander?

To be clear, I don't expect an answer.

I am pointing out that your defence of this article seems to indicate that you agree with Andrew Olexander and that any person who believes the needs of female people need to be prioritised over sex when sex matters, and that children require the very best medical care that does not solely focus on affirmation only.

If that is not the case, perhaps it is worth clarifying.

Cailin66 · 08/10/2024 13:41

CassieMaddox · 08/10/2024 11:46

In your head that may be true.
I didn't come to this case knowing that much about Deeming, now I do her views on Gender Ideology are the least concerning thing about her.

It's very dismissive to assume your own logic applied to conversations means "all that's left is gender ideology". That's not true at all.

What’s concerning about her views on Gender Ideology?

Helleofabore · 08/10/2024 13:43

Cailin66 · 08/10/2024 13:41

What’s concerning about her views on Gender Ideology?

It think quite a few of us are keen to know this.

Helleofabore · 08/10/2024 13:49

Helleofabore · 08/10/2024 13:40

Do you or do you not agree with her that the needs of female people need to be prioritised over gender when sex matters, and that children require the very best medical care rather than affirming only ?

This question mattered because you have posted an article where this is the main point being raised. Do you agree with Andrew Olexander?

And considering it was from 2022, and there has been a lot of information available about Lia Thomas, Gavin Hubbard and the Gender clinics, do you think that the majority would now agree with Andrew Olexander?

To be clear, I don't expect an answer.

I am pointing out that your defence of this article seems to indicate that you agree with Andrew Olexander and that any person who believes the needs of female people need to be prioritised over sex when sex matters, and that children require the very best medical care that does not solely focus on affirmation only.

If that is not the case, perhaps it is worth clarifying.

Oh dear.

"I am pointing out that your defence of this article seems to indicate that you agree with Andrew Olexander and that any person who believes the needs of female people need to be prioritised over sex when sex matters, and that children require the very best medical care that does not solely focus on affirmation only."

That point wasn't finished. Sorry. It should be this.

I am pointing out that your defence of this article seems to indicate that you agree with Andrew Olexander. And that any person who believes the needs of female people need to be prioritised over sex when sex matters, and that children require the very best medical care that does not solely focus on affirmation only, is extreme and worthy of being vilified as Olexander and Barry have done in that 2022 article.

Cailin66 · 08/10/2024 16:48

CassieMaddox · 08/10/2024 13:29

Why is the mention of a politicians pro-life view on a thread in feminism causing you to be so defensive?
Many feminists see womens bodily autonomy as non negotiable and would consider pro life views controversial. Similar to how many feminists would consider pro trans views controversial.

Still having comprehension problems it seems. So what if she’s pro life, what difference does it make. She’s not out there trying to restrict abortion. But she is out there defending women. For which you’ve spent post after post trying to knock her. You’re now posting up stuff from 2022 in your latest clutching at straw’s effort. You’re fooling nobody.

SinnerBoy · 08/10/2024 16:54

timenowplease · Yesterday 23:22

...been told that a thousand times already. It doesn't seem to have landed yet.

The sky is green! The sun rises in the West!

"Actually, no. Here's some evidence to prove that's wrong."

The sky is green! The sun rises in the West!

"No, actually, here's some more evidence and have you looked outside?"

The sky is green! The sun rises in the West!

"Hmm, here's reams and reams of evidence to say otherwise."

The sky is green! The sun rises in the West!

Imnobody4 · 08/10/2024 17:30

CassieMaddox · 08/10/2024 12:02

I'm not doing any of that. I'm pointing out an alternative, equally fact based opinion of my own to counter yours.

Moira Deeming is controversial. A leading commentator involved with the lib party called her a "shit sandwich" in the press.

This isn't about my views.

Cassie stop posting time wasting articles you haven't read.
Olexander was expelled from the Liberals in 2005, after he publicly spoke out against the party, describing it as run by homophobic extremists who were trying to purge it of moderates.At the time, he had lost Liberal endorsement after being involved in a drink-driving crash the previous year. Olexander has since worked on the Greens leader Adam Bandt’s 2010 campaign and assisted in the drafting of LGBTQ+ policy for the newly elected independent MP for Goldstein, Zoe Daniel.He denies his comments – both in 2005 and now – were retaliation for being dumped by the party.Tony Barry, a former senior Liberal staffer who is now with political consulting outfit RedBridge is responsible for the misogynistic 'shit sandwich' attack on Moira. I don't think Moira is half as 'controversial' as John Persutto.

Imnobody4 · 08/10/2024 17:37

Sorry about echoing what everyone else has said. I was catching up and was frustrated at having to read yet another article from the Guardian which is then being totally misrepresented.

Helleofabore · 08/10/2024 18:01

Imnobody4 · 08/10/2024 17:30

Cassie stop posting time wasting articles you haven't read.
Olexander was expelled from the Liberals in 2005, after he publicly spoke out against the party, describing it as run by homophobic extremists who were trying to purge it of moderates.At the time, he had lost Liberal endorsement after being involved in a drink-driving crash the previous year. Olexander has since worked on the Greens leader Adam Bandt’s 2010 campaign and assisted in the drafting of LGBTQ+ policy for the newly elected independent MP for Goldstein, Zoe Daniel.He denies his comments – both in 2005 and now – were retaliation for being dumped by the party.Tony Barry, a former senior Liberal staffer who is now with political consulting outfit RedBridge is responsible for the misogynistic 'shit sandwich' attack on Moira. I don't think Moira is half as 'controversial' as John Persutto.

Thanks Imnobody, I noticed but I figured anything I pointed out was just going to be ignored.

Like all of a sudden organisations, such that are similar to those 'Tufton Street' strategy organisations that should, according to some posters, be completely disregarded on their research, should be now considered credible. It does seem that like RedBridge would fit in the genre of a 'Tufton Street' organisation that is usually denounced as an accurate source of information, but it now considered a reliable and objective source.

But yes, Olexander was not endorsed by the Liberal Party, (had not been since 2005!) but is now also a credible source of what is acceptable beliefs in the Liberal Party of Australia it seems. And he is quote: " ‘angered’ and ‘disappointed’ with party" as the lead in to the article.

Someone who was rejected by the party himself and is heavily involved with the Greens to the point of working on the Greens LGBT+ policies, so not even the Liberal Party of Victoria's policies .... is to be considered a credible source on this particular issue.....

AND going back to check, Olexander's comments were focused on gender identity. So, it would be very good to know just what it is that the poster who is posting these vilifying articles disagrees with Moira Deeming on with regards to gender identity. Because at least then we could understand where the differences lie to result in this focus.

And the article was published in July 2022.

Plus, here again is confirmation that she had not said anything while she was a candidate, from the article:

"Asked about Deeming’s comments on Wednesday, Guy told reporters: “I didn’t see those and she certainly hasn’t made those comments as a candidate."

There seems to be a disconnect with the relevance of this article, the importance being put upon it and what is actually saying.

To recap for those still reading, this case has shown that the current Liberal Party of Victoria's leadership censured Moira Deeming on three occasions.

It was made clear on the audio that the 'three incidents' referred to the following two speeches and Moira Deeming attending the women's rights rally.
Moira Deeming's first speech in Victorian Parliament was the 'first incident' that Crozier 'counselled' Moira Deeming about.

https://www.facebook.com/MoiraDeemingMP/videos/judge-for-yourself-my-maiden-speech-to-parliament/1497520223990710/

Here is the 'second incident', the IWD speech:

x.com/moiradeemingmp/status/1634411680498335745?s=46&t=SPorwN-mokktL467rcZ57g

And the transcript for the above.

www.parliament.vic.gov.au/parliamentary-activity/hansard/hansard-details/hansard-974425065-20509

The third incident refers to the fact that the leadership team felt that she should have left the rally as soon as she realised the Neo nazis were there. That actually relied on her knowing that they were Neo nazis at the time, and there was some confusion as to who those men were.

FeralWoman · 08/10/2024 18:33

MarieDeGournay · 08/10/2024 11:18

Any updates on the court case? Any idea of when we might get a decision? I'm not following all the rich tapestry of discussions on this thread, I just check in occasionally to see how MD is getting on, which isn't obvious.

Court will resume at 11am Wednesday 9 October, AEST/Melbourne time. Junior counsel, not Chrysanthou and Collins. Pretty much just playing videos so that they are heard in open court.

Closing arguments Tuesday 22 to Thursday 24 October. C & C will be doing those.

Decision in February next year at the earliest I think. It’s usually at least three months at this level of court.

SinnerBoy · 08/10/2024 18:35

Helleofabore · Today 18:01

Thanks for your summing up there, especially:

The third incident refers to the fact that the leadership team felt that she should have left the rally as soon as she realised the Neo nazis were there. That actually relied on her knowing that they were Neo nazis at the time, and there was some confusion as to who those men were.

I mean, she should have drowned if she wasn't a witch, no?

Redshoeblueshoe · 08/10/2024 18:51

Thanks Feralwoman

Datun · 08/10/2024 20:02

Helleofabore · 08/10/2024 18:01

Thanks Imnobody, I noticed but I figured anything I pointed out was just going to be ignored.

Like all of a sudden organisations, such that are similar to those 'Tufton Street' strategy organisations that should, according to some posters, be completely disregarded on their research, should be now considered credible. It does seem that like RedBridge would fit in the genre of a 'Tufton Street' organisation that is usually denounced as an accurate source of information, but it now considered a reliable and objective source.

But yes, Olexander was not endorsed by the Liberal Party, (had not been since 2005!) but is now also a credible source of what is acceptable beliefs in the Liberal Party of Australia it seems. And he is quote: " ‘angered’ and ‘disappointed’ with party" as the lead in to the article.

Someone who was rejected by the party himself and is heavily involved with the Greens to the point of working on the Greens LGBT+ policies, so not even the Liberal Party of Victoria's policies .... is to be considered a credible source on this particular issue.....

AND going back to check, Olexander's comments were focused on gender identity. So, it would be very good to know just what it is that the poster who is posting these vilifying articles disagrees with Moira Deeming on with regards to gender identity. Because at least then we could understand where the differences lie to result in this focus.

And the article was published in July 2022.

Plus, here again is confirmation that she had not said anything while she was a candidate, from the article:

"Asked about Deeming’s comments on Wednesday, Guy told reporters: “I didn’t see those and she certainly hasn’t made those comments as a candidate."

There seems to be a disconnect with the relevance of this article, the importance being put upon it and what is actually saying.

To recap for those still reading, this case has shown that the current Liberal Party of Victoria's leadership censured Moira Deeming on three occasions.

It was made clear on the audio that the 'three incidents' referred to the following two speeches and Moira Deeming attending the women's rights rally.
Moira Deeming's first speech in Victorian Parliament was the 'first incident' that Crozier 'counselled' Moira Deeming about.

https://www.facebook.com/MoiraDeemingMP/videos/judge-for-yourself-my-maiden-speech-to-parliament/1497520223990710/

Here is the 'second incident', the IWD speech:

x.com/moiradeemingmp/status/1634411680498335745?s=46&t=SPorwN-mokktL467rcZ57g

And the transcript for the above.

www.parliament.vic.gov.au/parliamentary-activity/hansard/hansard-details/hansard-974425065-20509

The third incident refers to the fact that the leadership team felt that she should have left the rally as soon as she realised the Neo nazis were there. That actually relied on her knowing that they were Neo nazis at the time, and there was some confusion as to who those men were.

Edited

I still don't get why she was supposed to leave?

If she was associating with them, why would she leave? And if she wasn't associating them, why would she leave?

Helleofabore · 08/10/2024 20:23

Datun · 08/10/2024 20:02

I still don't get why she was supposed to leave?

If she was associating with them, why would she leave? And if she wasn't associating them, why would she leave?

I suppose it is so she can claim she didn’t know and that when she found out, she could say she left the rally. Maybe something like plausible deniability. Yet, I would also then think others could frame her leaving as virtue signaling.

MarieDeGournay · 08/10/2024 20:53

Thank you for the info about the actual court case FeralWoman, it's very welcome.

FeralWoman · 09/10/2024 00:53

I put 11am AEST when I meant AEDT. Still Melbourne time. Starts in 7mins.

FeralWoman · 09/10/2024 01:33

Some sort of legal arguing happening from Pesutto’s side. Judge is questioning their argument.

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