Why do all trans discussions end in a bun fight?

[Name5]

I have a natal daughter who is a young adult. I try to keep an open dialogue with her as her thoughts are changing as she gets older.
She is not causing any discord to anyone. I try to help when desparate parents ask simple questions about their LGBTQ DC ( this week it was about getting a job). Within a few hours there are big fights re toilets and rape crisis centres. Yes these things are horrifying but every bloody thread gets high jacked with these points of law. There should be a subject category for parents of adult trans people. This would allow issues to be discussed without the OP being subjected to accusations of ideology or affirmation. I don't believe my DD is better as a male persona but I can't and won't bully her to accept my feelings override hers. She's still my DC and all subjects are open to reasonable and lawful discussion. MNHQ can you please list a new category so people don't feel attacked and bullied?

If being pro women's rights is "anti trans" then being pro trans rights is "anti women".

It’s like banging your head against a brick wall isn’t it. Dear @Blanketyre - I know you’ve been told hundreds of times and you are purposefully deaf to anyone else’s opinions but….. IT’S ABOUT PROTECTING WOMENS RIGHTS, IT IS A PROTECTED BELIEF, IT IS NOT PHOBIC TO DEFEND THE EROSION OF OUR RIGHTS.

Has OP been back, or did they just make a thread to vaguely accused everyone on this board of random stuff prompted by a thread elsewhere, followed by some posters popping in to tell.us what we actually think and how awful we all are?

At least that poster isn't automatically saying "yes, Stonewall are correct and believing that your sex doesn't match your gender requires the belief that there are gender identities that match the sex of one's body".

So maybe they are thinking about it for themselves. Who knows?!

I think the problem is the word transphobic - if I have a phobia about something I run from the room screaming if I see one.

The pro trans lot use it to stir up anger etc -I am not transphobic but I don’t think male born should be competing in women’s sports against female born.

its a deliberate ploy by the pro trans to other anyone who doesn’t support trans in prisons,sport etc -we are all being manipulated by them.

Fear and loathing? It's the exact opposite when it comes down to young girls like the OPs daughter. I feel extremely sad and worried for them.

Some people are very intensely determined to believe that everyone hates them and wishes them ill. The truth is most people couldn't give a.damn how others live their lives so long as it doesn't impact on others or vulnerable people.

@Name5 The reason these threads all go the same way is because most posters on Mumsnet think gender identity theory is toxic and harmful. Looking at your posting history, it seems that you share this belief, and wish that your daughter was not caught up in it. Nobody here wishes harm to people like your daughter; on the contrary, we are generally appalled at the damage this belief system is doing to society and young people in particular. I hope your daughter finds a way to come to terms with who she is.

Quite.

Except sex continues to exist regardless.

I wonder what it is that makes posters here so reluctant to face being misogynistic or anti women. Itseems like a strange phenomenon to be able to happily attack women for not being part of a destructive ideology and then innocently claim not you aren't anti women. It's bizarre
Fixed that for you

no she hasn’t but I think unfortunately this thread popped up on trending …sometimes it does feel like people are lead down particular paths to end up on a bun fight!

The OP now has an answer to their question - this 'trans discussion' hasn't descended into a bun fight. It has -perhaps inevitably - run aground at times on the rocky shore of 'what exactly do you mean by trans?' and 'defending X does not mean attacking Y, if Y is not undermining X'.

This topic involves deeply-held convictions, firmly expressed; but bun fight? No.
I hope OP is satisfied with this outcome, and I hope nobody would ever dream of coming on here to try to provoke a bun fight.

For those reading along on this thread, just a reminder that we have recently been shown just how people's transgender identities are based on philosophical belief.

Because to be a person with a transgender identity is not based on having gender dysphoria. We have been told this now by professional academics as well as trans people themselves.

Therefore the only commonality for people with transgender identities is that their philosophical belief. Meaning no one needs to comply with another persons philosophical belief. No one.

For instance, taking the example of a male person who believes they are female.

No male can ever experience life as a woman. They can only ever experience life as a male person who believes they are a woman.

Even when they 'act' like a woman, they are acting as they believe a 'woman' should act. Which is fucking misogynistic!

Even if they are treated 'as a woman' by some people, they are being treated as a 'male who presents as a woman and believes they are a woman'. Because their every reaction is based on that. Not on them being female in any way.
Even when they have extreme body modifications, it is to be their own concept of what a female looks like to them. It is not what a female is. How can it be?

The only way a person can experience life as a woman, is to have a female body, formed around the production of large gametes, even if it doesn't produce those and to navigate their life based on the decisions they and society makes that revolve around them having that body.

A male can conceptualise what it might be like to be a female, but that is all it ever is - their concept of being female.

They may do it because they don't feel they fit into how they conceptualise how a male person interacts with the world (ie. their own stereotypes around being male) or they do it because they want to be seen as a female (using their own stereotypes of how a female navigates life). It really doesn't matter though. Their motivation is irrelevant to the outcome.

Which is that they will always be just a male person who believes they are something they are objectively not.

How can the material reality be any different? This is why someone's gender is only based on someone's philosophical belief. And philosophical beliefs are fine for people to hold, but not one person in the UK has to comply with another's philosophical belief.

No matter how kind or respectful that person who is trying to shame you into complying to use that language tells you that it is to use the preferred language, it is someone who is demanding that you support their own philosophical belief.

And no one has to pretend that any person on this earth has changed sex or is the sex they identify as but is materially not.

And those attempting to shame others in doing so, are not the 'kind' people that they would have you believe.

This point is always ignored, isn't it?

Excellent post @Helleofabore, thank you

I think the experience of people navigating this issue in their real life is different from those on either side of the fence airing the issues.

It always reminds me of gymnasts with muscle memory to swing round parallel bars or something. Once the argument gets going, it's just swipe, swoop, swipe, swoop - never goes anywhere.

The issues of a. How to support someone you love who tells you they're trans b. What the law around sex and gender should be and c. How society should or should not accommodate trans rights in terms of etiquette, social boundaries etc - these things are always mushed together but they're really quite different.

Fab post.

Even when they 'act' like a woman, they are acting as they believe a 'woman' should act. Which is fucking misogynistic!

This, for me, is of crucial importance. Thank you @Helleofabore

So you won't bully her to accept your beliefs override hers- absolutely reasonable, but it's acceptable that trans beliefs override those of everyone who don't believe male body people should be in female spaces. And that's why there will always be an argument- there isn't a middle ground. You either believe that male bodied people can be in female spaces because they 'feel' female, or you believe that women only spaces should be for women only

Was the posh person who glued themselves to a table in front of Dr Stock a Cambridge Undergrad or am I misremembering?

I don't like the term 'anti trans' because it makes no grammatical sense. it's like saying you're anti 'non' or anti 'un' or anti 'ex'.

I'm anti genderism. If 'trans' is shorthand for 'the imposition of genderist belief on non consenting members of wider society, including by adopting a gendered persona and insisting that be noticed and responded to', then yes, I'm anti that.

Even if it's shorthand for 'a person who imposes genderist belief on non consenting members of wider society, including by adopting a gendered persona and insisting that be noticed and responded to', then I'm anti it.

But I think I'll stick to anti genderism, or even gender critical.

Here is an example of how language has been twisted to become meaningless. The word 'cis' gets used regularly by people who insist that it is a meaningful descriptor.

It never was.

For instance, a poster who claims to have academic interest in the topic assured us that 'cis women' should be used when we are referring to two male boxers who competed in the female category of boxing in the Paris Olympics. However, I think that as many people who read these threads need to understand just what that term means.

The term 'cis' is now meaningless because it also now includes any male person who has a DSD yet has a body that is **formed around the production of small gametes, ie. a male person with a difference of sex development that have testes or testes tissue. Such as Caster Semenya.

Therefore, female people have no unique words that describe just those female people who have a body ^^formed around the production of large gametes.
Because 'girl' and 'woman' both now include:

1 Male person who has been incorrectly registered as a female at birth, but has a male body **.
2 Any male person has now claimed a transgender identity using those labels.
3 And any person who has a female body ^^.

Under the label of 'girl' and 'woman', extreme transgender activists have been telling us for years that those labels break down into two types of girls or women:

Cis and Transwomen/transgirls.

These terms mean:
Cis = 1 Male person who has been incorrectly registered as a female at birth, but has a male body **
and 3 Any person who has a female body^^
Trans = 2 Any male person has now claimed a transgender identity using those labels.

I have attached my image to make it clearer.

There is no unique word to mean female people who have a body ^^formed around the production of large gametes.

Cis is now shown to be meaningless. Yet we still get posters telling us we need to use it out of respect? Respect for which people? Because to me that demand looks like absolute rank misogyny to me. Yet some people try to declare that the philosophical beliefs around gender identity are good for women and girls, indeed any female person.

By the way, since there are plenty of transwomen who also identify as 'girls' don't forget that age and maturity of the body is also now a meaningless categorisation under those who come into the 'trans' category.

Trans identities can not exist without sex. Sex can exist without gender.

Trans people deserve sex based rights.

Thank you all for your thoughts.
I apologise if this was posted on the wrong board. I wasn't aware of a parents of adult tq+ board.

However as a few people have advanced searched my posts I can confirm I am not in agreement of trans ideology.
However in life I do not discriminate at all. I have been very active in protecting women's rights since university. I have recently made a big fuss over a topic discussed on this board. Let's say it involved shopping.

My DD does not insist on male pronouns or sprout trans ideology either. In fact we had a good debate regarding one of her lecturers who is a well known trans activist who she thinks is scientifically wrong and dangerous. I think debate is important and everyone has a right to free speech, hoorah for that.