Page 12 | John Lewis 'allows trans women into bra-fitting rooms' as retailer hit by furious gender row

IwantToRetire · 2024-09-08T22:50:21+00:00

^High street giant John Lewis is at the centre of a furious row amid claims its controversial trans policies put the safety of female staff and customers at risk, it can be revealed.^ ^The retail group is facing claims its inclusive transgender policies – claimed to have been unilaterally imposed on staff – are "dangerous" and relegate women to "second class employees".^ ^Lesley Pickup, who quit her job as a "selling partner" in John Lewis' Cheadle branch, allowed her resignation letter to be published on TV comedy writer and women's rights campaigner Graham Linehan's Substack platform, "The Glinner Update". In her letter, she insisted "female colleagues live in fear of dismissal if they speak out".^ ^Ms Pickup said that for the past 20 years, she had been "involved with female victims from all faiths, cultures, ethnicities, and backgrounds who have been subjected to domestic and sexual violence and psychological abuse by men".^ ^For some, she said, work offered "the only time in their lives where they should have guaranteed female-only safe spaces free from the demands of men regardless of who those men claim to be".^ Full story [[https://www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/news/uk-news/john-lewis-allows-trans-men-33622299 https://www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/news/uk-news/john-lewis-allows-trans-men-33622299]]

ElleWoods15 · 10/09/2024 14:24

ArabellaScott · 10/09/2024 14:18

'Accessing a bra-fitting service' is not a 'need' or a right.

As a woman blessed/cursed with hefty boobs I can assure you that it can well be a need.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 10/09/2024 14:25

Chariothorses · 10/09/2024 14:24

Just a reminder after seeing the little spat above by 2 posters (that may actually agree with each other!)
that due to the deliberately confusing language about trans issues some people use the phrase 'transgender men' to mean 'women who say they are men', and others use it to mean 'men who say they are women'.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/08/06/third-of-britons-dont-know-trans-women-born-male/
Clarity is important when it comes to these issues!

Yes this is important to bear in mind when discussing with people unfamiliar with genderist language.

Datun · 10/09/2024 14:25

ElleWoods15 · 10/09/2024 14:24

As a woman blessed/cursed with hefty boobs I can assure you that it can well be a need.

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oh for goodness sake. Accessing a female only bra fitting service is not a need for a man.

Datun · 10/09/2024 14:26

So what's the solution ElleWoods15?

You seem to be arguing that there isn't one.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 10/09/2024 14:27

It's not a need, signed a woman in her 40s similarly "blessed" who has never had it done.

naanaa · 10/09/2024 14:28

Soontobe60 · 09/09/2024 10:02

I’d first like to say that aged 8 I was flashed at by a man whilst walking to a friends house, and aged 12 another friend’s uncle grabbed my breasts and forced a kiss on me, telling me afterwards to keep it a secret or else he’d come after me. This is relevant.
Many years ago, when I was a 15 year old ‘Saturday Girl’ at British Home Stores in Manchester, I had the pleasure of working on the ladies changing room at the back of the store. Every week, at about 4.30, (we closed at 5) a group of men would come in, pick up lots of clothes from the women’s department and proceed to try them all on in the changing room. This room had 6 cubicles with curtains at each one, a central area with a mirror at the end then a right turn to the entrance, so the staff member (me) would be stood at the returns rail actually in the changing rooms unseen from other customers outside unless they actually walked in.
Sometimes there were a couple of men, sometimes 5 or 6. They would prance around in ladies underwear, touch each other up, swap clothes - always chose revealing items that they thought made them look ‘sexy’ 🤢. After a couple of weeks they asked me if I’d take some photos of them. I was 15, terrified of them, terrified of losing my job if I complained. They were clearly aroused by their cross dressing, and using me as a player in their fetish.
Bearing in mind my previous early encounters with men who were sexual abusers, I had absolutely no idea what to do. After about 6 weeks, another member of staff happened to come over to the changing rooms to check I’d tidied them properly at the end of the day. She saw these men - who by then were changed back into their own clothes - and told me off for letting them into the changing rooms! I still sometimes wake up in a cold sweat at the thought of these men.
My point is, men of any age, shape, sexual orientation or predilection for cross sex clothing will NEVER belong in changing rooms designated for women. And by ‘women’ let’s be clear, I mean adult human females. The only reason they would go in there is to feed their fetish. They don’t need bra fittings - how many women do actually have bra fittings? They don’t even need to try clothes on in public. I last used a communal changing room about 10 years ago!
Women should always say NO, and support each other.

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I know it’s just words, but I’m truly sorry for the experiences you had as a child. It makes me so sad that girls always end up carrying the burden of silence and feel unable to speak out.
Victims of abuse are often made to feel responsible for the behaviour of men, the fact that they encouraged or threatened into remaining silent, often means it’s difficult to separate themselves from what’s happened.
I hope your life has turned out well despite these harrowing incidents ❤️

maltravers · 10/09/2024 14:34

In answer to the PP - Some of the men who go into women’s changing areas are indeed doing it for erotic reasons - see clips in this thread for example. Also, you don’t need to be a genius to work out that men who are sexually aroused by dressing as women (as some TW are) should not be women’s changing rooms.

Generally, if men claim to be trans women - how could we tell? But men, whether they identify as women, just claim to for access, or just seek access because women are bullied if they try to say “no”, should not be in women’s changing rooms. The blokes can budge up for a change and accommodate difference, because they don’t need to fear sexual assault.

Datun · 10/09/2024 14:35

maltravers · 10/09/2024 14:34

In answer to the PP - Some of the men who go into women’s changing areas are indeed doing it for erotic reasons - see clips in this thread for example. Also, you don’t need to be a genius to work out that men who are sexually aroused by dressing as women (as some TW are) should not be women’s changing rooms.

Generally, if men claim to be trans women - how could we tell? But men, whether they identify as women, just claim to for access, or just seek access because women are bullied if they try to say “no”, should not be in women’s changing rooms. The blokes can budge up for a change and accommodate difference, because they don’t need to fear sexual assault.

I know it's a bit of a cliche now, but that's because it's true - good men stay out, so bad men stand out.

StainlessSteelMouse · 10/09/2024 14:52

I can be a bit of a bore on this subject, because I'm quite evangelical about thinking more women should get fitted. Far too many women put up with discomfort because they're wearing the wrong size bra.

Be that as it may, I still remain to be convinced that there are TW out there who need the service. Cross-sex hormones won't grow very much, and anyone who's had implants done knows what size they are. Besides, as PP have pointed out, men's proportions are totally different. You would want bras designed for male backs and shoulders.

There are shops that cater to cross-dressing men, that could provide these undergarments. But that wouldn't scratch a very particular itch.

And so we come back to the women and girls who actually do use the service. Girls in particular - if you're trying to persuade a reluctant teen to get fitted, it really doesn't help to have some bloke hanging around, let alone prioritising whatever the bloke is getting out of the experience.

Datun · 10/09/2024 15:18

StainlessSteelMouse · 10/09/2024 14:52

I can be a bit of a bore on this subject, because I'm quite evangelical about thinking more women should get fitted. Far too many women put up with discomfort because they're wearing the wrong size bra.

Be that as it may, I still remain to be convinced that there are TW out there who need the service. Cross-sex hormones won't grow very much, and anyone who's had implants done knows what size they are. Besides, as PP have pointed out, men's proportions are totally different. You would want bras designed for male backs and shoulders.

There are shops that cater to cross-dressing men, that could provide these undergarments. But that wouldn't scratch a very particular itch.

And so we come back to the women and girls who actually do use the service. Girls in particular - if you're trying to persuade a reluctant teen to get fitted, it really doesn't help to have some bloke hanging around, let alone prioritising whatever the bloke is getting out of the experience.

I agree. And I also agree that bra fitting is very beneficial for some women. I can't believe how uncomfortable many bras still are. It really does seem like it's harder than rocket science.

However, it's just become rather apparent that some men believe it's something that all women do, on a regular basis, as a girly 'thing'. And they view it as a rite of passage.

to me, it comes from the same place as wanting to carry around a tampon.

It's appropriating women's biology to get a sexual thrill. It's so creepy, it's hard to believe these men don't just self combust from creepness.

And all coming from the same place, in my opinion. Women are often expected to wear flimsy, lacy bras with bits of wire in them, and their ease and comfort is the last thing on the list, because - male gaze. And there are these men who are fetishising this sexism for their own ends, by wanting to try on, guess what? floaty lacy bras because 'that's what women do'.

marmaladeandpeanutbutter · 10/09/2024 15:27

I've had plenty of bra fitting at JL. It's always in a private cubicle.

Shortshriftandlethal · 10/09/2024 15:28

WickedSerious · 10/09/2024 13:51

I find it odd that posters who claim to work in roles that involve violence against women and girls don't have a problem with dodgy blokes having access to women and girls.

Edited

Or have an understanding of how/the ways in which male sexuality can be transgressive. The mechanics of it.

StealthSpinach · 10/09/2024 15:39

marmaladeandpeanutbutter · 10/09/2024 15:27

I've had plenty of bra fitting at JL. It's always in a private cubicle.

So you think women and girls should be fine with a TW bra fitter because they’ll be in a cubicle with the door shut? Or in the next cubicle along from a male body speaking with a “lady-voice”? I don’t want to share the fitting room area with a male body, let alone be in a small cubicle with one with the door closed…

Shortshriftandlethal · 10/09/2024 15:43

StealthSpinach · 10/09/2024 15:39

So you think women and girls should be fine with a TW bra fitter because they’ll be in a cubicle with the door shut? Or in the next cubicle along from a male body speaking with a “lady-voice”? I don’t want to share the fitting room area with a male body, let alone be in a small cubicle with one with the door closed…

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Quite!

When in a changing room, even those with solid doors, you are still aware of conversations in surrounding cubicles. We all know and understand that when you know it will just be other women in a room/space, there is more of an ability to relax and feel comfortable - we understand and are familair with the conversations and concerns of other women - around their bodies/figures/clothing.

A male presence changes all of that. But we know this already. I just cannot work out why some women pretend not to.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 10/09/2024 15:43

I find it odd that posters who claim to work in roles that involve violence against women and girls don't have a problem with dodgy blokes having access to women and girls.

To be fair we only have to look at the Roz Adams tribunal to see how entrenched "be kind" is in the women's sector, to the detriment of its primary role.

Women simpering on podcasts to misogynistic men about how rape victims should be "educated" for their wrongthink in wanting a female only rape counselling service.

Datun · 10/09/2024 16:03

marmaladeandpeanutbutter · 10/09/2024 15:27

I've had plenty of bra fitting at JL. It's always in a private cubicle.

All bra fittings are done in private cubicles.

And if the bra fitter is a man, you're stuck in a private cubicle with them, up close and personal, talking about your breasts.

Or if you're a female shop assistant, you're stuck in a private cubicle with them, talking about their breasts.

I honestly have no idea how anyone would find this anything other than dodgy as fuck.

HootyMcBooby · 10/09/2024 16:11

I don't care if the man in there is an autogynophile, or if he is just in there to get a thrill but knows he's a man, or if he's a man who thinks he actually IS a woman, or if he's a man who is only a man but who likes dressing up as a woman part time, or if he's a man who is in there to intimidate the women in there.
I don't care.
NO man is entitled to be in a women's safe space, especially when intimate things are going on.
I don't care about the feelings that may or may not be in that man's head.
Because that's the only difference in all those scenarios.

They are ALL still men, and not a single one of them needs to be in a female changing room, bathroom, fitting room or anywhere else.

Even if he has tits that he paid for.

ArabellaScott · 10/09/2024 16:17

HootyMcBooby · 10/09/2024 16:11

I don't care if the man in there is an autogynophile, or if he is just in there to get a thrill but knows he's a man, or if he's a man who thinks he actually IS a woman, or if he's a man who is only a man but who likes dressing up as a woman part time, or if he's a man who is in there to intimidate the women in there.
I don't care.
NO man is entitled to be in a women's safe space, especially when intimate things are going on.
I don't care about the feelings that may or may not be in that man's head.
Because that's the only difference in all those scenarios.

They are ALL still men, and not a single one of them needs to be in a female changing room, bathroom, fitting room or anywhere else.

Even if he has tits that he paid for.

Yes. All of this rests on 'how men feel' about the issue.

Whether they feel they want/need/have the right to use women and women's spaces.

Women's feelings on the subject are dismissed. If they say 'no' to men they are sneered at as bigots, or prudes, or 'pearl clutchers', or hysterics.

Datun · 10/09/2024 16:43

HootyMcBooby · 10/09/2024 16:11

I don't care if the man in there is an autogynophile, or if he is just in there to get a thrill but knows he's a man, or if he's a man who thinks he actually IS a woman, or if he's a man who is only a man but who likes dressing up as a woman part time, or if he's a man who is in there to intimidate the women in there.
I don't care.
NO man is entitled to be in a women's safe space, especially when intimate things are going on.
I don't care about the feelings that may or may not be in that man's head.
Because that's the only difference in all those scenarios.

They are ALL still men, and not a single one of them needs to be in a female changing room, bathroom, fitting room or anywhere else.

Even if he has tits that he paid for.

Yes!

His motivation has got fuck all to do with my boundaries.

marmaladeandpeanutbutter · 10/09/2024 16:44

I definitely do NOT think it’s ok for a TW to fit a bra for me. I said that in terms of one having a fitting next to you, it won’t happen, as the cubicles are private.

terryleather · 10/09/2024 17:02

HootyMcBooby · 10/09/2024 16:11

I don't care if the man in there is an autogynophile, or if he is just in there to get a thrill but knows he's a man, or if he's a man who thinks he actually IS a woman, or if he's a man who is only a man but who likes dressing up as a woman part time, or if he's a man who is in there to intimidate the women in there.
I don't care.
NO man is entitled to be in a women's safe space, especially when intimate things are going on.
I don't care about the feelings that may or may not be in that man's head.
Because that's the only difference in all those scenarios.

They are ALL still men, and not a single one of them needs to be in a female changing room, bathroom, fitting room or anywhere else.

Even if he has tits that he paid for.

This ^^

CriticalCondition · 10/09/2024 17:24

The cubicles are not private. It is possible to hear every word, every rustle, every murmur from the adjoining cubicle.

I do not want to hear a man having a bra fitted. And I certainly do not want him to hear me having a bra fitted.

Do the posters who think this is ok discuss the cup size and fullness of their breasts in the hearing of their friends' husbands? Do they talk about the comfort and fit of their bras with their brothers or fathers? Do they debate sexy bra details like lace or spaghetti straps while Steve from accounts is at the coffee machine? Fine, crack on. I don't.

Even if it's 'safe' in the sense that the bloke is on the other side of a locked cubicle door (let's leave aside the risk of secret filming for the moment even though we know it happens) his presence is an affront to the dignity and privacy of women.

Bugger off to the men's changing room.

Retiredfromthere · 10/09/2024 17:25

marmaladeandpeanutbutter · 10/09/2024 16:44

I definitely do NOT think it’s ok for a TW to fit a bra for me. I said that in terms of one having a fitting next to you, it won’t happen, as the cubicles are private.

I recall an interview with someone (female) who mentioned that when she heard a male voice in the toilet cubicle next to her she froze. Just waited and waited until he had left. There is even less sound insulation between fitting cubicles. Sometimes a door of not full height. Not that private if opposite sex are around and about. I would not be happy to hear male voice in female space. It's not only bras. These are spaces where women try on swimming costumes etc. So not only top half exposure.

AccidentallyWesAnderson · 10/09/2024 17:38

It's bloody annoying even having the husbands/male partners of women in underwear changing rooms milling about. Just go away.

Datun · 10/09/2024 17:45

The cubicles are not private. It is possible to hear every word, every rustle, every murmur from the adjoining cubicle.

I do not want to hear a man having a bra fitted. And I certainly do not want him to hear me having a bra fitted.

This ^

Good Lord. Many women won't dream of going to a bra fitting, precisely because they're far too self-conscious.

Although the end product is often (not always) good, the process can be a little cringe. Especially as it's normally women with a fuller figure who do it.

It's a means to an end. It's not a girly fun half hour.

And no, I don't want some bloke, definitely entitled, and possibly fetishistic, overhearing it.

I can't believe it's even up for question.