John Lewis 'allows trans women into bra-fitting rooms' as retailer hit by furious gender row

[IwantToRetire]

High street giant John Lewis is at the centre of a furious row amid claims its controversial trans policies put the safety of female staff and customers at risk, it can be revealed.

The retail group is facing claims its inclusive transgender policies – claimed to have been unilaterally imposed on staff – are "dangerous" and relegate women to "second class employees".

Lesley Pickup, who quit her job as a "selling partner" in John Lewis' Cheadle branch, allowed her resignation letter to be published on TV comedy writer and women's rights campaigner Graham Linehan's Substack platform, "The Glinner Update". In her letter, she insisted "female colleagues live in fear of dismissal if they speak out".

Ms Pickup said that for the past 20 years, she had been "involved with female victims from all faiths, cultures, ethnicities, and backgrounds who have been subjected to domestic and sexual violence and psychological abuse by men".

For some, she said, work offered "the only time in their lives where they should have guaranteed female-only safe spaces free from the demands of men regardless of who those men claim to be".

Full story https://www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/news/uk-news/john-lewis-allows-trans-men-33622299

Trans women don't. If they have had breast implants then they will have the perfect cup size they paid for.

Men,it's men they're letting into their fitting rooms.

Ah DJ here with your usual nonsense

Im sure you can cite the evidence of this being the case for oooh years and yeeears

TM are women so are fine in women’s changing rooms

And, unlike you I susoect, years ago I did work in retail in a shop that had a number of regular TW customers. They never once asked to use the changing rooms. What they did is tell us what they were buying was for their mum and could they bring them back if she didn’t like it. We knew it was for them and they knew we knew and it was fine

back before this batshittery started

This assertion that 'trans women need a bra fitting service' really boils my piss.

How many men ever gave a toss about the provision of bra fitting services for women as something 'necessary'?

It's only since some men have become interested in using the service that it's suddenly deemed 'necessary'.

Well be hearing that 'it's their human right' next.

Thus demonstrating how society treats men and women differently.

Men's 'wants' are actually 'needs', especially when this colours with women's rights.

This is the problematic belief underlying sexism.

Trans men needing bras would use the female fitting rooms as they would have always done

If any transwomen wish to be fitted for a bra then that should be accommodated in the male fitting rooms, ideally with a male member of staff.

Indeed! I means there’s no esoteric mystique to bra measuring that means only women can do it. No reason at all why male staff can’t be trained to do it on men

Exactly. Work the problem (male wants a bra) not by making women budge up, cede boundaries and be put at risk.

Women don't exist to gratify male fantasies.

Maybe Dad joke thinks that male shop attendants couldn't possibly fit a bra, as they don't have the correct lady essence....

What you need to know (or your friend needs to know) is the JL policy. So ask her to look it up before you meet.

Yep.

No female should be forced to be in a confined space with a man, whether he is pretending to be a woman or not.

So - who best to write to?

https://www.johnlewispartnership.media/contact

So women’s safety is important but TW’s safety isn’t?

If a TW needs or wants a bra fitting (breasts can be grown due to hormones rather than surgery) then agree this shouldn’t take place in a female changing room. But they shouldn’t be lumped in with men either. Violence against TW is a thing too. Please let’s not forget that most trans people just want to get on and live their lives in peace like the rest of us, and aren’t out to hurt anyone.

A third space? I can’t think of another answer that keeps everyone safe. And the right of the fitter to refuse to fit anyone they don’t feel comfortable with. It’s an intimate process after all.

I’m sure I’ll get labelled ‘woke’ for the view that everyone is entitled to privacy and their own personal safety, and no one’s rights trump anyone else’s.

Nobody ‘needs’ access to a bra fitting service.

Transwomen are men. That's the definition of the word.

They can change with men, and have men fit them.

No one here is saying that 'TW safety isn't important'

Please don't misrepresent the discussion and derail the thread.

If you have concerns about some males using the male changing room, that's not women's problem to solve.

They're is no evidence to suggest that trans women are at risk from other males.

It’s supposed to upset you. That’s how some blokes get their jollies you know.

No that’s wrong. They already know the policy. What I need is this real world example the PP spoke about. It has more of an impact if it’s true.

Why would a TW not be safe in the mens changing room? Is it because it’s full of men? Just like them?
By the way, transwomen are one of the safest demographics in the world unless they live in some South American countries and earn their living through prostitution. But then, all people who earn their living through prostitution are vulnerable.

Men don't want a third space,it's 'outing' and doesn't validate their nonsense identities.

@Soontobe60 your example made me goosebump - in a bad way. Many women will have been the subject of sexual abuse but few will know about it. Your younger self should have always been safe but especially in a women’s changing room.
Men don’t need bra fittings. I once worked with a young woman whose disabilities meant that she needed full care, including dressing. She loved shopping and choosing clothes but never used fitting rooms. Never once did she complain about anything. If she could try on things at home then trans people can do the same. I’ve only ever had one bra fitting and only because it was for a sports bra to run a marathon in.
I won’t be using JL changing rooms or their shops including online.

I despair that anyone could read this thread, including the harrowing account of abuse above, and their first thought be 'but what about the men'???

Fucks sake I need a cup of tea and a break from the Internet.

Using these instructions works very well.

https://www.booborbust.com/bra-measuring-guide/

You do it by yourself, in your own home.

I understand that may be disappointing to some men.

Shame.

Men who claim to be women (MCW) are men. They have as much propensity for violence, are just as capable of violence as any other man. They appear (from MoJ figures about convicted sex offenders) to have a greater propensity for sexual violence than other men.

Therefore, from a safety perspective, it makes sense not to expose women to a greater risk by allowing MCW (effectively any man) into women's facilities and spaces. This also leaves men - all men - to face the same risk as they always have. MCW have not been shown to face a higher risk of violent attack than other men.

If they already know the policy, then they know that it would allow such a situation to occur.

IF TW actually think like women, then they'd act how we'd act in that situation. So I think to myself, how would I act if I really wanted a bra fitting but was worried it might make others feel uncomfortable?

I'd do 1 of 2 things. (1) Just measure myself at home (2) I might email an independent store, explain the issue, that I don't want to make anyone feel uncomfortable, ask if they would be comfortable with it, and if so whether I could come at a specific very quiet time/open 10m late for me, because I wouldn't want to make potential customers feel uncomfortable. But that I'd understand if it's a no.

I wouldn't just turn up in John Lewis. That's not how the vast majority of women act when they know they might cause offence.

Have you ever been fitted for a bra in a high street retailer?

Are there any links to evidence of all these attacks on trans women in male changing rooms? And also toilets? TRA's always say TW (men) just want to pee/get changed, they're in enclosed spaces etc.

If that's the case then that would work just as well in the men's wouldn't it? How would a TW be at risk in an enclosed lockable changing cubicle when trying on a bra?