Good grief. Now they’re saying that not all xx are female and not all xy are male. And that xy ‘generally' means male.

[AShortName]

The more this misinformation spreads, the more people will believe it. I am concerned that if it continues, then it will soon become regarded as a truth.

There is no such thing as the "wrong" pathway, I'm not even sure what you're talking about.

There isn't a destination on either pathway thay would produce no gametes, but in the case of, say, Swyer Syndrome that we've all been talking a lot about, the male sex determining gene does not activate so I'd be happy to consider them female, in line with current scientific practice, but note that Swyer himself considered them male.

No vagina on apple trees, cannabis plants or courgettes but the definition of male and female still holds:
Male = small mobile gametes
Female = Large immobile gametes

It's not true. All XXs are female. Anyone with a Y is male. That's factual.

Some of these posts are ignorant and unkind. I work with people with differences/variations of sex development (DSDs) and it is not as simple as people are asserting.

If you have complete androgen insensitivity (CAIS), for example, you are genetically XY (male). However, at birth you phenotypically appear female, with female external genitalia. Often women with CAIS and their families only discover the condition when they go through puberty without their periods starting. In simple terms, they are genetically male but their body does not respond to testosterone at all. Even if testosterone is high in their blood stream, it makes no difference, as their body is completely unresponsive to it. They are female, look female but have this difference. They are infertile and do not have a uterus. They are likely to have undescended tested which may cause health issues. They would have no advantage in female sport. You would have no idea when you meet someone with CAIS that they have this condition, as they have breasts and a female appearance. It is rare.

Other DSDs are far more complicated and people do not fall into simple male/female categories. Sex is often determined based on analysis of external sexual characteristics/hormones/genetics/personal identity but it is not straightforward.

The transgender lobby has complicated matters for people with DSDs and people asserting that XX = always female and XY = always male are wrong. While this is the case for the vast majority of people, there are many variations that means it is simply not true for everybody.

People have been spreading misinformation about DSDs for years. Usually if someone uses the word 'intersex' it's worth looking at what they say with caution.

There was a deliberately misleading statement that went around claiming that being 'intersex' was a common as having red hair. The reality is that DSDs are incredibly rare.

So the question is, how do so many men born with 46 XY 5 ARD end up in the Olympics? We need more investigative journalism into the corrupt talent scouts who go round actively searching for boys with this condition so that they can exploit an IOC loophole.

Except in this case you are wrong.

It's unusual but biology isn't as simple as XX/XY binary.

There are male XX and female XY and XXY etc chromosomes.

It's a can of worms which sport needs to untangle but it actually really isn't as simple as you'd like to think, and that isn't the fault of the poor athletes, whose identity and bodies are scrutinised to the nth degree.

I'm sorry if you think it's unkind to say this but people with CAIS are not female. It's factual that they are male, even though they appear female and likely view themselves as female.

do we start genotyping everyone at birth so we can identify those who’s phenotype doesn’t meet their genotype to avoid this issue and identify “real” sex?

No ones phenotype fails to match their genotype.

No, there are not. There are no XX males. Anyone with a Y is male.

Other DSDs are far more complicated and people do not fall into simple male/female categories.

All DSDs are either male or female.

For those of us without a biology background

Gamates turns out to be the eggs or sperm cells

So if you make eggs you are female and if you make sperm you are male

People with DSD can have one type of cell and not physically appear that way due to the disorder that they have

The rarest dsd - about 500 people - they can make eggs and sperm potentially ( although these people tend to be infertile )

Nope. Not true

It's perfectly possibly to have female parts, go through female puberty and love and be raised as a female and have DSD disorder. Caster Semenya was a good example and athletics had to deal with this issue.

Boxing will have to do the same.

However, it's is NOT the athlete's fault that their genetics is complex. As far as she knows and has been aware all her life, she's female.

There's I need for this level of vitriol and nastiness. Handling this situation requires cool heads and sensitivity to those who's gender is more biologically complex.

It's perfectly possibly to have female parts, go through female puberty and love and be raised as a female and have DSD disorder. Caster Semenya was a good example and athletics had to deal with this issue.

Caster Semenya is a male with male parts - he has fathered a child with his own sperm - who went through male puberty. He had a DSD condition where he had an under developed penis at birth and undescended testicules so didn’t look obviously like a boy at birth and without high quality obstetric care his DSD was missed so he was recorded as a girl. By puberty his sex was clear.

It's rife. I will come back properly soon. Why does the thread title need changing?

It doesn't have to be unkind to state the truth. People with dsd are with male or female. Only when we can have a basic level of truth can we start to discuss whether certain 'conditions' (for wont of a different word) should be allowed special dispensation.

Semenya is a man, not a woman. The DSD he has affects only men.

So not a good example at all, really.

@PeriIsKickingMyButt It is unkind. The only thing that makes women with CAIS male is the XY genotype. It is often a huge shock for people to discover aged 16/17 that they are genetically male when they 'look like women's and have spent their whole lives as girls and young women and make the assumptions that go with that (e.g. ability to have children in the future). As I said, they are only men if you think genetics is all that matters whereas the reality is that it is a combination of genetics, endocrinology and physiology. They have no advantage in sports etc as they can't respond to testosterone. And honestly, you would have no idea if you met someone with CAIS.

I think it's hard for many people to get their head round the idea that sex is not as a simple as they always thought. For a minority of people this is just not true and conflating DSDs with transgender issues is very unhelpful.

If they have found 500 people with such complex messed up biology it can clearly happen - and it's usually possible to work out what side is favoured as far as I can tell - although again this may not be simple

It doesn't change the issue

There may be a small fraction of the population for whom some kind of special analysis needs to be done to work out if they have the male advantage

It's rare , it can be very distressing for the people involved but it is necessary

And unfortunately such people may reach high levels of sport before anyone asks the questions

It seems intrusive

But the more that is known , the more these childen will be sought after and encouraged to compete unless female sport is protected

genetics is all that matters whereas the reality is that it is a combination of genetics, endocrinology and physiology.

endocrinology and physiology is a result of genetics

THIS! The people pretending we're all terribly unkind for pointing out this unfairness, noticeably, direct all their ' be kindness' to the male athletes with DSDs - and never towards the women being cheated out of once-in-a-lifetime opportunities where differences in biology matter.

Why is such a rare condition over represented in elite WOMENS sports? It's not by accident.

@KielderWater It can be extremely difficult to determine whether some people with DSDs are male or female as they often have both male and female characteristics. CAIS is one of the simpler examples.

The rarest dsd - about 500 people - they can make eggs and sperm potentially ( although these people tend to be infertile )

Hi, could you give us some more information on this condition please? thank you 😊

With CAIS I think it depends on other factors - how they develop and respond to specific hormones

Some do have a male advantage

Many Others don't

This is a genuine question because I'm confused. What is someone with XY chromosomes and a sex disorder who has a vagina and uterus but no eggs? If everyone with XY is a man what does it mean if those people get IVF and get pregnant? It's a pregnant man?

I too am against NHS policies referring to "people with uteruses" etc yet some people with XY chromosomes do have wombs. It's all giving me a headache and would really appreciate someone explaining like I'm 5.

Look, it's really disingenuous to claim that XY 5 ARD people like Caster and these two boxers don't know they are male. When they get to puberty they go through male puberty. Their genitalia will virilise (get bigger!) and they will grow body and facial hair. Their jaws and brow bones will develop. They won't get breasts or menstruate. It's impossible for people not to be aware that they are not developing as a woman. All these athletes are aware they are XY well before they start competing.