Good grief. Now they’re saying that not all xx are female and not all xy are male. And that xy ‘generally' means male.

[AShortName]

The more this misinformation spreads, the more people will believe it. I am concerned that if it continues, then it will soon become regarded as a truth.

Lots of things are difficult. So?

@greenbirds

For a minority of people this is just not true and conflating DSDs with transgender issues is very unhelpful.

The only people conflating DSDs with trangender identities is the trans rights advocacy movement. They need to take responsibility for the confusion and unkindness.

@KielderWater Of course it is true that genetics determines endocrine environment and physiology, the difficulty is that that often the different components don't 'match'

I didn't even do biology o level so I can't really give information

This is one paper i looked at which seemed readable !

rarediseases.org/rare-diseases/ovotesticular-disorder-of-sex-development/

@Ingenieur I agree but there is a lot of confusion among the public, as evidenced frequently on Mumsnet!

I didn't say they were men and CAIS is totally irrelevant to the sports debate but they are still not female whether you think that fact is 'unkind' or not.

Using textbook footnotes about rare variations in sexual development as a gotcha to "prove" that entitled middle aged men who decide to start wearing lipstick and swishy skirts to work always been women or that strapping blokes like Caster Semenya should be in women's sports is a bit desperate, isn't it?

Not really, genetic testing is pretty straightforward

While it excludes those who don’t produce gametes at all, that’s obviously not incorrect. So it stands that you can absolutely be male and have a vagina which is something I’ve read many times on here isn’t possible.

It's not the same as a normal vagina though. It's blind ending and often shorter.

Here are the CAIS and 46XY 5ARD flow charts as these have been mentioned specifically.

Here is the link for all the flow charts and they include both normal male and female development and DSDs.

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/6337427dc583e5578b5d2192/t/65c8ee1210f5ea02e0cdaabb/1707666963838/Sex+Development+Flow+Charts+2024.02.11.pdf

In the vast majority of cases it is both - because chromosomes determine genitalia; but in a tiny number of cases ( DSDs) it comes down to the chromosomes. Chromosomes and genetics are the hard drive - the genitals and sexual characteristics the soft ware.

@AltitudeCheck but everyone is either male or female. Even those with a DSD will be, it's factually correct to state that some DSDs are only found in men, others are only found in women. If a person has internal testes and no ovaries, external genitalia that don't look typically male, then they are still male. There really is no spectrum. If you actually look into this there have been no recorded cases of a person having both male and female sexual organs with both sets working. As I said on another thread, I know a young man with a DSD who is constantly trying to inform people that he isn't female. He is a male with a DSD. It causes him enormous distress.

"Other DSDs are far more complicated and people do not fall into simple male/female categories. Sex is often determined based on analysis of external sexual characteristics/hormones/genetics/personal identity but it is not straightforward."

Sex is nearly always determined based on observation at birth and this method works for over 99% of the population (in the uk at least).

The species is designed to be binary when it comes to sex, and male and female difference is simple and straight forward.

It is DSDs that can be complex and not straight forward, not the binary sex classification. The existence of DSDs reflects 'disorder' in development. Something has gone wrong. The person has not developed in line with the design of the species.

It is batshit crazy to suggest the male/female binary classification across all sexually reproducing species is wrong because some develop a-typically.

Humans are a sighted species, some are born blind- this is an impediment. The same can be said for being a bi-pedal species, a hearing species etc.

The movement to 'normalise' difference (disability, deformity) came about to stop stigma and discrimination. People who have differences, deformities, disabilities should not be socially 'othered', considered 'lesser' or denied the same rights as others. However, they are 'abnormal' when it comes to development. The notion that ideas about typical and healthy development should be re-written to suggest that these differences don't reflect an error in development is ridiculous.

How people feel about their differences/disorders/disabilities is influenced by social factors intersecting with biological features. Whatever narratives are given/believed, the material reality will remain unchanged.

Exactly. Males with DSDs are over represented in womens sports.

In any scenario, something has to be done to protect those that are under represented (I mean, isn't that the whole left-wing stance??). ie those with XX chromosomes.

Are already being done for everybody that has a fetal screening test for Downs etc i.e pretty much every pregnant woman in developed countries at least.

All of this stuff about X and Y genes and DSDs is a complete red herring and being used to mislead people.

DSDs and genotypes other than XX and XY are rare. The overwhelming majority of this small number of people with DSDs are unambiguously male or female.

There are no humans who have a complete set of male and female reproductive organs (hermaphrodites).

There are no women with completely normal female physiology but XY genotype and no men with completely normal male physiology but XX genotype.

There is no continuum or spectrum of sex. All of the abnormalities of sex chromosomes like XXY, XYY and X0 result in a person who is male or female. Ambiguities are vanishingly rare.

There are people like Emma Hilton and Carole Hooven on X who can explain all of it. Emma Hilton is a scientist whose research specialism is development of sex differentiation. Yet they constantly get told they're wrong by non-scientists parroting complete nonsense that they've read.

Until a few years ago none of the non-scientific general public had any interest in DSDs. The ONLY reason there's been so much talk about DSDs and sex chromosomes in recent years is because of men saying they're women. One of the arguments supporting them saying they're Actual Women, not just cross dressers, was this notion that sex is complicated and not binary. And here we are now, with absurd notions to do with chromosome differences, which are not the slightest bit relevant to 40 year old men deciding they're women.

Sadly you're right @AShortName , the internet is being flooded by this nonsense, and it sounds very plausible to many people so it's being accepted as truth.

Nobody shouts " man" at a child....they are a child.

But as a child grows into an adolescent any underlying conditions may become apparent and can be tested for. It is a tough and confusing hand to be dealt a DSD, obviously - but human beings are by nature quite adaptable, and with time people with DSDs can come to understand the full truth of their condition and adapt accordingly.

Where are we gettinf sex is observed/determined at birth? Sex is determined at co ception and many, many people observe this while the baby is still i the womb, either through visualisation with ultrasound or via conclusive diagnostic tests such as CVS, amniocentesis or foetal blood sampling. Hence all the gender reveal parties (where I am screaming it's a sex reveal!)

Given the scouting that goes on for athletes with DSDs in areas where there is known to be increased prevalence, I'm not so inclined to believe that these individuals really get to the age of 16 before the discovery is made.

It really is the most patronising, white saviour bollocks to assume the natives are uneducated and stupid.

Its misogyny. Girls have no value. "Girls" with a DSD involving a Y chromosome and a testosterone surge during puberty are valuable.

Would you describe a married adult man, who is being investigated for fertility issues, and is found to be XX as female? Because that is how de La Chapelle syndrome is often diagnosed as there is often no hint of it in earlier life. Fully functioning male genitalia (but sterile) and normal male appearance. Should such an individual be permitted to participate in women’s sport?

This issue has highlighted how tangled thinking is on this subject, and how the language surrounding sex and gender doesn't help since it means different things when talking about different issues.

It is not hugely complex and difficult to understand at all but conflation of sex and gender makes it so.

A: Humans are either male or female genetically, and cannot be neither or change from one to the other.

B: Humans sometimes present as male or female or non binary, and this presentation is sometimes different depending on the individual and what they want or feel or what they have been led to believe

Both things are true and in some cases they are not connected at all.

People shouting about how some women are male are correct

People shouting about how males shouldn't compete with females are correct

I did credit the general public with a bit more common sense before this but honestly I despair

Agreed.

but there has already been one response to my post referring to that (albeit hypothetical) child as “he”, and the child should be told they are male and be expected to adapt to that.

if someone has such a dsd and wishes to continue life as a female then no one should be referring to them as “he”, or insisting they are male. It is their disorder and we should be lead by them and how they want to be treated/referred to.

pp has said about using the heel prick test at birth- so your baby that looks like a girl has XY chromosomes. Now what? Reconstructive surgery? No, I expect it would continue as before where the child is brought up in a social role to match it’s appearance, then given the information when it’s old enough to understand and make the choice.

*caveat I am not including sport in this discussion, I have already said there will probably need to be a blanket ban on XY in women’s sport.

The problem is that we've had it explained to like we are 5 and we keep shouting that information as 'fact' because the realiry is mind blowingly complex. In reality for most people and most situations that simple 5 year old version works, however there are a very small number of variations, some possibly so rare that thy haven't been discovered yet, where it isn't that simple.

While XY is a 'male' genotype, I wouldn't say that an XY person born with a vagina and uterus, raised believing they are a female, subjected to the same pressures as every other young girl growing up, is instantly 'man' in society on discovering a chromosomal difference. What bathroom does someone with a vulva / no penis but XY chromosomes use? I wouldn't be sending a young person with a vulva that looks like any other little girl into the men's room!