Can a XX woman go through male puberty?

[DenmarkStreet]

The Facebook algorithms decided that I was a good object for an article on the Imane Khelif discussion which ended with the statement that some XX women go through male puberty. Or as it was described "the testosterone shower" which very much seem to suggest something quite brief. Is this even possible or just made up?

Surprisingly, there seems also to be SRY-negative 46,XX testicular difference of sex development - where someone develops testicles, despite having XX chromosomes and no SRY gene, even one that's been translocated to somewhere else - but this is a small fraction of the tiny number of people with 46,XX testicular difference of sex development (aka de la Chappelle syndrome), and it sounds as though those individuals typically have ambiguous genitalia, perhaps various disabilities, and low testosterone compared with males. I haven't understood what the variations are that let someone develop a mostly male phenotype, including testicles, without a functioning SRY gene but it seems it's to do with changes further down the pathways of what the SRY gene, if present, would have done. Here's a review.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK1416/

In principle, we could ask, suppose such a person tried to enter women's sport, would that be ok? Most simplistic rules are going to say yes. I am guessing that's not actually going to be a problem in the case of this particular DSD, but could be wrong. We don't have to use a simplistic rule, however. Personally I'd be comfortable saying that there's no right to compete and so it's fine to default to no. So we might say that to compete as a woman you have to say that you are a woman AND have f on your passport AND have XX chromosomes AND have no SRY gene AND have female-typical levels of testosterone AND not take testosterone or any medication that affects your level of testosterone - plus any other condition that might be required to rule out any competitor for whom there's a reasonable (in the eyes of the public or other competitors) case that they are not female. It's a game, the rules are socially agreed. If some people who think of themselves as women are ruled out when there's a case that they shouldn't have been, that's not a terrible thing; it's no worse than someone else being ruled out because they didn't happen to have the genetic giftedness that would have made them competitive, which is just normal.

Someone with Swyer syndrome does not produce oestrogen of testosterone so would not go through puberty. It is clear this boxer does not have this.

@Almostwelsh this is incorrect. De La Chapelle individuals are XX and undergo male puberty and have typical male phenotype including genitalia. They are generally only diagnosed when a couple are seeking a diagnosis for infertility.

@LaeralSilverhand thanks. I was unaware of that condition. From what you say though it would be unlikely that a person with De La Chapelle would be competing as a woman in sports, as they would observed as male at birth and be unaware they were genetically female, nor would anyone else be aware of that. They would present as male?

So science made it possible.

It maybe possible in the future for a XY male to have a donated uterus and have a baby .

This would not make them women. It would make Science immoral.

Also does not have ovaries and does not ovulate or produce female gametes.

Also vanishingly rare.

Maybe worth noting that the Y chromosome almost never crosses over during meiosis (where sperm starts out in life). Evolutionary geneticists use this fact to trace ancestry down the male line. In our family, the Y reveals an ancient Briton lineage for example. X chromosomes do however line up and exchange genetic material so if you want to trace female ancestry down through the ages then you need to use mitochondrial DNA which gets passed on exclusively in the egg, female to female (and to males of course from their mothers).

All those words to illustrate that the Y chromosome is a reliably non sex recombining chromosome. It isn't being exchanged back and forth from X to Y willynilly through the ages. It almost invariably stays put. Which is a long winded way to say SRY transfers are extremely rare 😊😊. Sorry, as you were...

Thank you good women of Mumsnet. Can I conclude that if there are XX women who go through male puberty (de la Chappelle) then it is related to DSD diagnosis? The article I read, despite being about DSDs, very much made it sound that random non DSD women would go through male puberty. The disinformation is strong in this one.

Unlike most on this topic, this is a really interesting thread. Thanks to all the very knowledgable posters!

I mean not the point of this post but cross sex hormones given to young girls does bring on some things boys get in puberty? Do they take something to suppress the growth of breasts? Obviously still female though they don't grow male reproductive organs

Emma Hilton on X is full of info on these disorders if you want to find out more

If a person with XX chromosomes went through male puberty that would definitely be a difference of sexual development, yes! (Assuming you mean spontaneously went through male puberty, i.e., we're not talking about someone who was taking testosterone in order to do so - in the latter case it's not a DSD, it's being trans and using "gender affirming" medicine, and there might be a terminological question about whether we counted that as going through male puberty or as imitating male puberty.)

The suppression of oestrogen and the introduction of drugs like testosterone would account for this.

Post pubescence we're talking doubly mastectomy of healthy breast tissue.

Looks like there's all sorts of disorders and they are all either male or female. Not sure how they all present or what it means for each individual

I find this whole thread super odd, it reminds me of the pseudoscience of race in the 19th century, or phrenology. It’s way beyond the trans debate.

Chromosomes are very complicated and from journal articles I have read, it’s not a straightforward binary. I don’t think we have an adequate understanding of them because scientists have not studied women’s bodies properly.

If someone has a vagina but is intersex are they allowed to be a woman according to this thread? No.

This discussion definitely has an air of eugenics. I feel like it’s gone beyond the whole trans debate, to people that are biologically born a certain way, being subject to scrutiny, the way disabled people, or certain ethnic groups were treated in early 20th century Germany.

Are we now going to start restricting the biological variation of humanity to make sure it is more uniform, to make sure it fits what makes us feel comfortable? God I hope not.

It's not always possible to tell but in this case it's very clearly a male body. Even just the muscle distribution and shape on the arms is different to a female who has done gym training to get a high level of muscle.

How broad the shoulders are, face shape etc are also noticeably not female.
There are cases where certain men can appear female (though it's usually easier for women to appear like a young man) but when there are clearly male features they can't pass as female as it just doesn't happen in females. It's the same as how experts can often identify bones as male or female without needing a full skeleton.

Chromosomes are very complicated

FFS GENES, sex development is determined by GENES!!

That's a stretch and a half.

Man beats up woman in the name of vanishingly rare karyotype which he may not even have but that's OK because talking about his potential conditions sounds like racism?

I feel like it’s gone beyond the whole trans debate, to people that are biologically born a certain way

Yes we are discussing biology and the developmental pathways of sex. Trans is irrelevant to this.

@AllGrownUp1465 sex is binary though and the DSDs are sex specific

Don't be silly.

Scientific fact is that sex is binary.

This discussion definitely has an air of eugenics.

No, that would be giving puberty blockers to girls who like football and short hair,

She has no breasts

I've been looking for that chart. Thanks.

Lol
at someone coming in to lecture us about DSD using the term “intersex” 🤪🤪🤪