Good grief. Now they’re saying that not all xx are female and not all xy are male. And that xy ‘generally' means male.

[AShortName]

The more this misinformation spreads, the more people will believe it. I am concerned that if it continues, then it will soon become regarded as a truth.

Joyce covers this in 'Trans ', and Davies in 'Unfair Play'.

It's crazy watching them dance.

They don't want to admit that their policy is that as long as you say you're a woman and you can show a document with F on it that's all that matters to them because they know it would cause outrage.

pp has said about using the heel prick test at birth- so your baby that looks like a girl has XY chromosomes. Now what? Reconstructive surgery? No, I expect it would continue as before where the child is brought up in a social role to match it’s appearance, then given the information when it’s old enough to understand and make the choice.

General paediatrics textbooks from as recently as the 1970s stated that the parents of most children with ambiguous genitalia would be best advised to raise the children as girls because future surgical reconstruction is easier, which seems breathtakingly inappropriate in the light of current knowledge. However, in every one of the handful of real life cases of babies with ambiguous genitalia I've come across in UK medical practice since the mid-1980s a team of specialists has been involved, the child has been thoroughly investigated, and the consensus has been that a child with an XY DSD who is likely to go through male puberty should be raised as a boy, with ongoing support given to the family and surgical reconstruction carried out as and when appropriate.

Having said that, I believe that the two boxers in the news could have been identified unquestioningly as female at birth and spent their early years being socialised as girls, including being on the rough end of the opportunity gap that exists between boys and girls in sport. I'm inclined to be sceptical about the retrofitted backstories of brave little girls sneaking off to have secret boxing lessons. Experiencing male puberty when you've been brought up as a little girl, especially in a society with highly polarised gender roles, must be unspeakably traumatic and I'm sure every FWR "regular" will feel deeply for these young people as human beings. But selling young people - young men, now - in this position the promise that they can become an icon within women's sport is the opposite of sensitive and practical care, quite apart from the callous disregard for WOMEN as human beings and as athletes.

I’m in two minds about this. I think it really boils down to context and behaviour tbh (and I’m strongly GC).

thinking about something like 5 ard (caster semenya)..

a teenager who discovers at 14/16 that they are “growing” an unexpected penis and they are really male not female is a potentially traumatised child. I would absolutely support them in whatever decisions they made about name/gender identity…. Right up to the point their decisions have a detrimental effect on women. They want to continue as female then as long as they keep their new bits to themselves (or consenting adults) I would consider that reasonable. Anyone socialised as female would understand why penises should not be in female changing rooms - and they’d probably not want to be showing them anyway.

the minute they know and continue to want to use their male puberty advantages to take spaces/medals away from people without those advantages - at that point I will treat them as male.

This does not mean that standard xy men get to use female spaces because they feel female. I am happy to “be kind” (yuk I know) to someone with a genetic condition that they had no choice but to deal with - in the same way we are kind to people with other genetic/developmental differences. I’m not going to be kind to someone who just fancies being in women’s spaces for a while.

If we ever come to a time when science can prove a genetic component to being trans the discussion will have to evolve (but not until then), but certainly in terms of sport the divisions should be xx,xy and very very few special cases that will need to be referred to CAS to decide.

Joyce covers this in 'Trans ', and Davies in 'Unfair Play'.

Is there evidence? I haven't read either.

Indeed.

Considering the number of bloody doping scandals that have plagued the Olympics over the decades, explaining you accept someone's sex based on a passport that can be changed almost at whim, is gonna be a real doozy.

Fair point, but I think SRY-negative somatic 'males' who are sporting fit must be as rare as hen's teeth.

There's two things going on. Misunderstanding about these conditions and what they mean for the vanishingly small numbers affected. And the ability of the trans movement to hijack the existence of these people and their conditions to push the idea that sex and gender are interchangeable and exists in nature on a spectrum that it is possible to move between.

But the media isn't helping.

Because its job should be to cast light on the science of these conditions. But many media outlets won't do that, because they've accepted the idea that language can and must be bent out of shape to avoid offending a minority, that this is somehow good and progressive, and that if anyone points out that the reporting is inaccurate, they must be bigoted and cruel, or irredeemable in a moral way. It doesn't take a lot of googling to see though that they are all genetic anomalies were someone has been pushed off the standard developmental path for XX or XY (but in all cases leading to infertility because of the drift away from the standard developmental path). And that's what really matters.

These people are infertile because they have genetic abnormalities. And before someone pipes up to tell me how cruel I am for calling them abnormalities; that's exactly what they are. A person can live a good life with these conditions, but there is no benefit in sugar coating what is in fact a medical condition.

XX with Sry gene transposition are infertile females.

XY with Androgen Insensitivities are infertile males.

The fact they have developed unusual sex organs is an irrelevant curiosity.

This is science, not ideology.

I saw one on twix that stated the reason the Algerian had XY chromosomes was because they had high levels of testosterone.

As for the degree in Biology, I'm a retired clinical physiologist.

I had them from the library so can't check. I would recommend them - the Davies book is more likely to have what you're looking for.

@Brainworm You're spot on. Calling everything "differences" has obscured the fact that people with an abnormality are actually disadvantaged in various ways, and often need treatment. It isn't just another way of being. That doesn't mean affected people are lesser, just as my deafness doesn't make me less of a person.

Some of the 'facts' on sm are crazy. I just read on Facebook that Khelif was pregnant 5 years ago.

Weird isn't it that this disorder is so rare yet so many of them turn up as elite athletes at the Olympics. Especially from countries where training isn't easily accessible. It's almost like, I don't know, they were deliberately sought out and trained to compete for their countries.

No

@KohlaParasaurus @DorotheaDiamond great posts

The disadvantages are of course sad for the individuals concerned, but many of us are a lot more concerned about the unfair advantages that some of these conditions bring when competing in the female category in sport.

Weird isn't it that this disorder is so rare yet so many of them turn up as elite athletes at the Olympics. Especially from countries where training isn't easily accessible. It's almost like, I don't know, they were deliberately sought out and trained to compete for their countries.

I don't find that weird. I think that's more to do with physical advantage if they are going through a male puberty.

I despair sometimes.

The male xy cells that may turn up in a mother belong to the child. They do not belong to the mother and do not change anything regarding the genetic make up of the mother.

We don’t say man, we say male. And nobody will be shouting it.

It needs to be discussed with understanding so that it can be dealt with properly. Not like it is now.

Let's be very clear (again) that dsd and trans are worlds apart and not the same topic at all.

I think testing could be considered for (some/all?) sportsmen and women when they turn professional. Of course, that doesn’t mean it can be done earlier.

Nobody is talking about looking at genitals. Let’s be clear on that.

Of course this is a sensitive area, however day to day vs professional sports are two different things.

Still either genetically male or female.

It would make sense actually. So that support can be given asap and not at puberty or adulthood.

So, 0.018% of populations have DSDs .

then , a small number of DSDs are potentially detected before puberty as they have a symptom profile that extends way beyond sexual function. Some are life threatening. In a higher proportion there is significant ambiguity in anatomy at birth that would, in most countries with robust maternity services, questioned and child given further tests. Those not knowin till puberty are a small sub group, or those in countries where stigma or poor maternity services exist where there are anantomical issues that should raise questions.

So we’re talking about the small % of DSD affecting males that either were impossible to tell pre puberty, or society/family missed or ignored, that seem to end up in sports classes for women. Not those DSD affecting females either.

that’s a very small group of individuals in any country. Yet here they are in women’s sports. Doesn’t seem like an odd coincidence. Seems an odd coincidence it also happens in countries with less developed sports programmes for women ( or men). All too suspicious for me.

that’s a very small group of individuals in any country. Yet here they are in women’s sports. Doesn’t seem like an odd coincidence. Seems an odd coincidence it also happens in countries with less developed sports programmes for women ( or men). All too suspicious for me.

And less developed medical programmes.

They stand out in sport if they've had the advantage of a male puberty surely.

How many other DSD presenting sportspeople are you aware of?

I'm sceptical as to whether Caster semenya was socialised as a girl.

Interviews with Caster show a highly sexist attitude towards girls, dismissive actually. And comments from his school teachers/coach back that up.

Maybe, if this DSD isn't that rare, people remain far more undecided than one might imagine.

Caster Semenya's first love was football, but at that time girls' football was not as established as it is now....so Semenya was channeled, instead, into women's athletics. It is clear that there was some calculation involved in this.