This is getting lonely

[Daffydaff]

I posted ages ago about how I lost some friends to 'the other side', one of whom was like a brother to me but called me a transphobe because he's full on TWAW. We no longer speak. I also broached it with a few close female friends who don't agree with me, but although we remain friends I can't help feel a smidge of distance from them as a result.

This all burnt me, I can't lie. I kept my head down, I felt lonely, but this board has been a great resource and I follow some amazing women on X. I began to feel confident again in my beliefs, more eloquent, and thought about raising my head above the parapet.

Except... I just have. Over the boxing controversy. An old friend posted expressing faux confusion about the whole thing, saying the best woman won, the IOC wouldn't have allowed the fight to go ahead if it wasn't fair, it was very sneery and dismissive and put it into such black and white terms (bigots Vs kindness) that I wanted to speak up.

Too scared to comment directly on his post I sent a message, so apologetic in tone and with a hundred caveats, even saying (like a coward) 'I don't espouse the views in your post' but instead couched it in terms of 'the reporting was so hopeless that this is what I've found and it may help you' (he's a journalist by trade so I appealed to this aspect). I then simply said that there was some concern about male puberty / XY chromosome / DSD / unfair advantage / IOC are not some benevolent institution / equality at stake etc etc. I even said 'I may not be right' just to ram it home that I was objectively giving a differing perspective. Such mealy mouthed guff but I was nervous. Ugh.

He responded by saying 'yes the IOC is corrupt (errrr, not what he said in his post) but what proof did I have to claim the two boxers have DSD' He then blocked me a few minutes later.

Anyway. I'm beyond depressed by this. I just wanted another vent. Sorry if I'm taking up a post complaining again, but what does one do? I hate being silent. I feel like a weak feminist. I have visions of me speaking up and not caring who I lose and giving courage to any others out there who feel like me. But the reality is that I'm scared of losing all my friends! They've been family to me. I was part of a community of misfits, norm-defying and expressive and embracing all and sundry. And now I feel like the bad guy. And I've also recently moved to a new country and a very liberal city where I've already nodded along to people with opposing views to mine. It's bizarre. I'm so outspoken with everything else, happily respectful and courteous and able to present coherent opinions on politics and religion and gun control (I'm in a republican state!) but this feels like a cult.

Thanks for reading.

Well Ketamine is an option LOL! Just put me under until the madness passes!

I'm mid-40s but the range of my friends is mid-30s to mid-50s (such as this latest friend). I do think that age might come into it. Had I been a decade younger my lifestyle and beliefs would have probably have led me down the #bekind path - as someone above caught on with my word 'misfits' I was very much a 'let everyone live their best lives' and protective of the underdog as a de facto stance. But I evolved and became much wiser (I think!) once I hit 40.

I'm sure more of my other friends would probably think as I do, but because my initial foray into the subject a few years ago was so shitty I just retreated and licked my wounds. I do sometimes fantasise about posting something as inoffensive but as honest as possible, 'coming out' as you say, and just dealing with the fall out if it comes. As a lot of people have said, they're not friends if they can't have good faith conversations with you. But... that will remain on the back burner for now!

I think it was Emma Hilton who pointed out, once you control for all the variables, you have basically just created the category of male and female (but in a far more complicated fashion)

Same, one of my closest friends disagrees with me politically on all kinds of stuff, but this is fine, we get a lot out of discussing where we disagree and have even changed each other's views from time to time. Life's too short to walk on eggshells.

@Daffydaff .. I haven't read all of the replies but I understand some of what you are feeling.

I struggle with shades of grey and often find myself losing friends or having people distance themselves from me.

I have found myself passionately defending my position on feminism, the environment, child protection and in my previous job, compliance with accounting and ethical guidelines .... but do find myself being told I put people off by being too dogmatic and not seeing nuance.

The IOC and the Paris Boxing Unit rules do not require entrants into the women's category to have maximum testosterone levels of 2.5nmol/L or not to have gone through male puberty.

When this is made clear, the majority of people do not agree with this stance. These rules have permitted males who have female passports to continue to compete in the women's competition. The IOC cannot find a way to talk themselves out of this corner.

You are not wrong.... but too many people cannot bring themselves to see this.

I also want to add.... find your tribe. We are out there, hiding, being silenced, retreating to the safety of our quiet spaces... but we are still here.

I was blocked on X, kicked off a facebook group and had posts deleted on another.. .. and my posts simply said that sporting organisations who do not have max testosterone levels of 2.5nmol/l and require that competitors in the female category have not gone through male category should be called to explain why this is not the case for their sport rather than be required to define why these measures are necessary to maintain fairness and safety.

No lies, no assumptions, no insults.... but I was silenced.

I had the same thought too. It made me remember the 5 Geek Social Fallacies that were doing the rounds on the internet decades ago:
https://plausiblydeniable.com/five-geek-social-fallacies/

Daffydaff you have my sincere sympathy for being treated so shabbily by this person. Some people can't handle differing opinions in their friend group and some can - I think you should think positively about your own ability to be a friend to someone without requiring them to agree 100% with all your beliefs; it's a skill that makes it easier to be around, and make friends from, a wider selection of people in the end.

In the meantime, hang out with us here and chat about issues you can't discuss in real life - I think it will help you feel less bottled up and you can spend time exploring and honing your thoughts and views. The vipers of FWR have been a sanity saver for me and I treasure this place 😊 (sorry Wims for being all soppy 😂)

Snorts at this nonsense. I hope you're being ironic.

I think it’s natural for us not to like seeing evidence that disconfirms our beliefs, but TRAs seem to be particularly prone to it!

I’m so sorry you’ve lost friends over this. I only talk about issues like this with people I know are broadly in agreement. One family member is a trans ally, so I never say anything to them. It’s good to discuss the issues here though - I’m anonymous here and on Twitter.

I actually think this is the best question to ask rather than getting into an argument over the tests etc

The IOC cannot find a way to talk themselves out of this corner

You are not wrong.... but too many people cannot bring themselves to see this

make not mistake, the IOC do not want to walk themselves out of this corner: they are ideologically opposed to gender testing and want sport to be based on Self ID. They slipped it in pre Tokyo which didn’t get nearly enough attention due to Covid and were hoping it’d continue unchallenged and when it was they could argue “been this way for years” and “DSDs very sad very complex don’t be a bigot”.

IK should be the easier fight for the IOC to achieve acceptance for XY in female sport (brought up as F, no transition, all terribly sad and tragic whilst also being easier to spin due to lack of public knowledge on DSDs)

BUT if IK failed a sex test tomorrow the IOCs position wouldn’t change. They would allow him to compete under self ID, but they know that is harder pill for the public to swallow.

I'm currently being bullied on fb by various 'friends' and have been kicked out of groups etc. It's hurtful and I'm feeling super anxious and upset about it all, while at the same time also being furious that people think it's okay to do this. I'm happy to disagree and debate or just to accept that we have different views. But the bullying, the being kicked out of groups, having people told they're not allowed to be friends with me, losing work and opportunities - it's a lot to deal with. Ultimately, I am willing to accept it if I am wrong. But being told to educate myself by people who clearly have no idea of any of the relevant information is hard to take.

That’s so sad. And it seems to be so common where this subject is concerned, mainly from the TRA side.

I think they consider it to be a moral issue, so that if you don’t agree with their views, you’re a horrible person and deserve to be excommunicated.

They consider any attempt to put the opposite view, backed up by facts, to be immoral. So they won’t allow reasoned debate. They believe that anyone putting forward the opposing view is motivated by hatred.

@wrongthinker - if you would like to add me on FB, I’m happy to PM you my name.

Not this debunked rubbish again. Khelifs opponent at the championship in New Delhi was Thai , not Russian. The president of the IBA is Russian. Vice president Ukrainian and CEO British. Next!

One of the things I'm very grateful to this forum for is helping me become more sympathetic to millenials and younger generations.
I now realise that, had I been perhaps only five years younger than I am, when I was accessing help for all the fallout of childhood sexual abuse from women's services and support groups. I found a place where I was heard for the first time in my life, where my words were given weight and my story was taken seriously. If that had happened for me and then, immediately after, I'd been told by these same people who created a place where I felt safe for the first time in my life, oh you don't really know what you mean when you say you need space away from male people to heal - I think it would have so overwhelmed my defences, and created such a mix of safety / unsafety, the way my psyche would have coped would be to take on TWAW as un unquestionable dogma. I'd absolutely be cutting people off if they asked questions that generated any sort of cognitive disonance.

One of the ways I’ve found helpful to negotiate this with acquaintance friends, is to be a bit bewildered. I have strong opinions and am well read but don’t engage from that position anymore, it’s too threatening.
So I ask easy questions, starting from where they are. ‘I get that the boxer is a woman, but it doesn’t look very fair when they are so much stronger and have such long arms compared to the other women. Do you think it’s high testosterone? Is it fair to have such high testosterone when the other women don’t? I feel really uncomfortable because it looks so unfair.’

People are incredibly patronising in return, with gentle warnings about racism and so on. But I think it raises questions in their minds.

One of my closest friends is very TWAW and "be kind", and the other is a bit more gender critical but has some odd ideas about this subject (no more uncomfortable sharing a space with a trans woman than a lesbian, thinks it's shameful that Angela Carini forfeited the fight and didn't just keep on until she got knocked out).

We had quite a heated discussion about this last week, which was not our first foray into sex/gender issues. And then we moved on with our normal conversations.

I think the kind of friendships where you can disagree over something fundamental like this, and know that you disagree, and yet not fall out over it, are becoming increasingly rare.

Keep your head up, woman. Yes, it's difficult being in the right all the time when society is full of maniacs. The most important thing you can do right now is double down. Triple down. Talk to people about trans-identified athletes at the bus stop. Give people the numbers about Tavistock while you're out shopping. Anyone who isn't with us is against us.

It's sorry to say but you need to cut out the toxic people from your life: all people who have toxic views about women and girls. Have some self-respect and stand up for your views. If someone you know is talking nonsense, it is your duty to shut it down. Don't let these things go unchecked! You must be a thorn in the side of every radical gender terrorist who seeks to take away our rights.

Be honest. Will you be happy with yourself, looking back at your life, as someone who nods along with all the trans insanity in this world? Stand up and be counted!

I just can't get over how nasty and bullying the 'be kind' lobby are. There's never any sense of 'hey I don't agree with you about that, but I'm interested in talking,' or even, 'Ooh I'm totally on the opposite side on this issue, so let's agree to disagree and talk about other topics'. It's always, 'you're an evil bitch, I'm going to stop being friends with you and try to get other people to also stop being your friend, and maybe I'll try to get you fired while I'm at it.'

I've been through the mill with this exact thing this last week and it's horrible. It's bullying. But also I have to remind myself that I don't want friends like this. They'll all turn on each other in the end.

Well said. Would you rather have fake so-called "friends" who are people you've known for a long time and watched as they develop abhorrent views that enable the systematic r*pe of women and girls? Or would you want to be friends with real women, with sensible views? Only one answer here. I've lost many friends to the side of "acceptance", "tolerance", and "kindness" who were actually terrible bullies.

I am on holiday with my family this week and things are usually tense anyway because my Dad and brother are quite opionated on many topics and often hold different perspectives than my sister and I. My sister and her family are liberal lefties and my 15 year old is a dyed in the wool capitalist (bordering on Trump supporter which causes issues in our own house!). Anyway.. I often just bite my tongue and shut up, to avoid a heated discussion. My sister and her daughter are of the live and let live, trans women are women and the poor female boxer has been called a man... I couldn't bring myself to argue... and it makes me sad. They have very little respect for or understanding of competitive sport so they don't see the issue.

I've lost my sister Iver this and teetering on losing my own mother but I won't back down. Men are not women.

My ideal is to be very calm, ask a lot of questions to find out where the other person is coming from (hopefully helping them realise they don't know very much) and being able to state facts which I can reference from sources which are reputable. I have not achieved this ideal but that's my goal.

I've spent a few days away from this site (on a much needed holiday) but have just read a few more of the posts and I'm so sorry that there are lots of us in the same boat. It is depressing to lose friends, and on this topic in particular. What I don't get is that I haven't changed. My friends know me. They've known me for decades. They've seen how I am as well as listened to me talk about matters that are important to all of us. I always 'towed the party line' as it were, being kind and open and fun and with no particularly controversial opinions. So I guess the only way they can handle me now, knowing that I disagree with them on this, is to assume I have changed beyond recognition and am now too evil to converse with.

The responses on here have all helped me realise that fuck 'em, that true friendships are maybe harder to find but easier to keep. I'm actually laughing at this latest block - what an absolutely weak man and awful journalist to boot 😆

Solidarity sisters.