This is getting lonely

[Daffydaff]

I posted ages ago about how I lost some friends to 'the other side', one of whom was like a brother to me but called me a transphobe because he's full on TWAW. We no longer speak. I also broached it with a few close female friends who don't agree with me, but although we remain friends I can't help feel a smidge of distance from them as a result.

This all burnt me, I can't lie. I kept my head down, I felt lonely, but this board has been a great resource and I follow some amazing women on X. I began to feel confident again in my beliefs, more eloquent, and thought about raising my head above the parapet.

Except... I just have. Over the boxing controversy. An old friend posted expressing faux confusion about the whole thing, saying the best woman won, the IOC wouldn't have allowed the fight to go ahead if it wasn't fair, it was very sneery and dismissive and put it into such black and white terms (bigots Vs kindness) that I wanted to speak up.

Too scared to comment directly on his post I sent a message, so apologetic in tone and with a hundred caveats, even saying (like a coward) 'I don't espouse the views in your post' but instead couched it in terms of 'the reporting was so hopeless that this is what I've found and it may help you' (he's a journalist by trade so I appealed to this aspect). I then simply said that there was some concern about male puberty / XY chromosome / DSD / unfair advantage / IOC are not some benevolent institution / equality at stake etc etc. I even said 'I may not be right' just to ram it home that I was objectively giving a differing perspective. Such mealy mouthed guff but I was nervous. Ugh.

He responded by saying 'yes the IOC is corrupt (errrr, not what he said in his post) but what proof did I have to claim the two boxers have DSD' He then blocked me a few minutes later.

Anyway. I'm beyond depressed by this. I just wanted another vent. Sorry if I'm taking up a post complaining again, but what does one do? I hate being silent. I feel like a weak feminist. I have visions of me speaking up and not caring who I lose and giving courage to any others out there who feel like me. But the reality is that I'm scared of losing all my friends! They've been family to me. I was part of a community of misfits, norm-defying and expressive and embracing all and sundry. And now I feel like the bad guy. And I've also recently moved to a new country and a very liberal city where I've already nodded along to people with opposing views to mine. It's bizarre. I'm so outspoken with everything else, happily respectful and courteous and able to present coherent opinions on politics and religion and gun control (I'm in a republican state!) but this feels like a cult.

Thanks for reading.

Well done for speaking up. It is very draining to swim against the tide. Sometimes you can do it and sometimes you need to take a rest and that is perfectly reasonable.
Good friends can agree to disagree and listen to each other. Clearly this person couldn’t do that.
As for the comments here about “pearl clutching” and “be kind” this is misogynistic nonsense so just ignore labelling and instruction intended to shut women up if they dare to say something which doesn’t suit.

(Argh. My comment above, that wasn't supposed to be a strike out. Supposed to be parenthetical.)

I'm really interested to know what age you and your friends are… I've 'come out' as GC to many of my friends, and all of them have either been in complete agreement, or at least open-minded and willing to have good faith discussions. We're all in our late 40s/50s.

There are several errors of fact in what you say.

Imane Khelif isn’t a man and ‘failed’ her testing by the IBA (run by a Russian national) after beating a Russian opponent. Her tests have never been repeated or the information made public

Not true.

Both Lin Yu-ting and Imane Khelif were tested twice, and failed twice. They were tested at the IBA Women’s World Boxing Championships in Istanbul 2022, and also at the IBA Women’s World Boxing Championships in New Delhi 2023. The tests were carried out by two independent laboratories.

Both had the opportunity to appeal the test results to the Court of Arbitration for Sport. Lin chose not to, and Khelif initially appealed but then withdrew the appeal.

The test results were not made public for medical privacy reasons. Khelif's result would necessarily have been made public if he had continued with his appeal to the CAS (as happened with Castor Semenya). It's possible this is why he withdrew his appeal, because it would have made public the fact that he has XY chromosomes and hence is male.

The IBA informed the IOC of the tests in a letter in June 2023, saying they had "concluded the boxer’s DNA was that of a male consisting of XY chromosomes"

after beating a Russian opponent

In the 2023 championships, Khelif beat a Russian woman in his second round match. He was disqualified two rounds later, having won his semi-final against a Thai boxer and before fighting a Chinese boxer in the final. The disqualification cannot have had anything to do with his victory over the Russian earlier in the tournament - it did not benefit the Russian at all.

Lin didn't fight against a Russian boxer.

I don’t notice people being so pearly clutchingly horrified at the actual rapist taking part in the games.

You must have missed the very long thread on here, full of outrage about the Dutch volleyball player.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5105627-dutch-volleyball-player-who-raped-12-year-old-british-girl-qualifies-for-olympics

Sources.

https://quillette.com/2024/08/03/xy-athletes-in-womens-olympic-boxing-paris-2024-controversy-explained-khelif-yu-ting/

https://www.3wiresports.com/articles/2024/8/3/0d4ucn50bmvbndhhqjohaneccoqueq?ref=quillette.com

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1819427537740558848.html

https://reduxx.info/international-olympic-committee-was-warned-about-male-boxers-world-boxing-organization-vice-president-says/

Statement by the IBA on 31st July: https://www.iba.sport/news/statement-made-by-the-international-boxing-association-regarding-athletes-disqualifications-in-world-boxing-championships-2023/

Statement by the IBA on 1st August: https://www.iba.sport/news/iba-reaffirms-the-position-and-removal-of-boxers-from-all-events/

I'm feeling a bit battered today because a discussion on this issue with dh and ds15 was a bit trickier than I thought. Ds talked about basketball players who were tall and had an advantage so it's ok (I pointed out this is different from the differences between the two sexes) dh basically thought I sounded like a conspiracy theory nut because I said how shocked I was that journalists in the 'main stream media' weren't reporting the issue accurately. Apparently the term 'main stream media' is not a phrase to use if you want to convince someone of your argument. We haven't fallen out about it, it just seems much more obvious to me what the problem is. I currently won't discuss it with anyone else because I have no idea what they think and even a discussion where I felt misunderstood rather than attacked felt a bit much.

Thank you! All the info in one place. I've bookmarked that. 🙂

Of course being born with a DSD is not a choice, it must be a traumatic thing and I have every sympathy for people with DSDs.

But if Khelif and Lin are indeed intersex and were brought up as girls (the evidence so far seems to point this way) and later discovered they were male, but went on to compete as women anyway, then yes that is a choice. The wrong choice. Of course they should have been disqualified and not allowed to make that choice, but here we are.

Incidentally, the IBA is due to make a statement on Monday clarifying what they know.

The BBC has a article up at the moment questioning whether we can trust the sex tests, but they are extremely simple to administer. It is undergrad project level and can use a simple cheek swab, so both boxers (and indeed the IOC) could have put all of this to bed by having an independent test carried out. The fact no-one has (and in fact they didn't challenge the ban at the time), I think tells you everything you need to know.

Good point @Truthlikeness .

I don’t notice people being so pearly clutchingly horrified at the actual rapist taking part in the games.
The only people who seem to not have previously objected to or been aware of the child rapist are the ones who are now trying to use him as a gotcha.
I saw a lot of objections to him on here and on twitter, long before I was aware of the boxer fiasco.
The same people who were objecting to the child rapist are now the same people who are objecting to the risk posed to female boxers.
I guess that's what happens when you follow and take an interest in feminist accounts that post predominantly about women's rights and are concerned about VAWG.

Incredibly difficult, but take heart Im in Ground zero, so you can imagine the situation, and I have lost all my 'friends'
But realistically they werent really friends were they, because they must know how it impacts on you and women generally.

I will say that being overly apologetic and 'small' encourages the bully in others.
There is nothing to apologise for, youre not denying reality or stealing anyones rights!
Its they who should be ashamed.
You are welcome to message me directly

What rubbish, it was roundlly called out all over Mumsnet and its in all the papers, theres still a thread about it here.
That poster is an idiot.

Quite! But the OP in not the problem here; it is her supposed 'friends'.

@Daffydaff .. I understand and I hear you. It is not easy.

You will find your tribe.

I think you need to find friends who share your values and who aren't hypersensitive about being disagreed with.
Anybody who would reject you over that is not a real friend and is a control freak.
It's tough. It's almost like we need to have a dating/social meetup app for GC people.

Daffy, I have a relative who is completely TWAW (and also all of the so called 'right side of history' opinions) and I have not dared bring up the Olympic boxing with them. I have been very down about their dogmaticism in the past. My thoughts and opinions have been well and truly challanged, but I just cannot take the ketman that is needed to be on the 'right side of history'. My brain just can't do it. I am super careful when they visit, but I won't lie.

https://www.solzhenitsyncenter.org/live-not-by-lies

I was thinking of this the other day. A secret code to 'know your ally'.

Hmmm. I have a small badge in the colours of the suffragette movement. I'm going to start wearing it so if you see it you can come chat to me!

I've just learnt a new word (I originally thought it was a typo for 'ketamine', I thought that was a slightly odd sidestep from the topic 😆). What a fascinating word and context. I'm going to go down a research rabbit hole. But it encapsulates my feelings too.

I'm really big on truth (I mean, who isn't, but I'm a big believer in confrontation and discussion being healthy), which is why I've felt so hurt that the times I've been truthful to my friends has resulted in their loss.

I think that your compromise of being careful but not lying if it comes up is a good way to preserve sanity and friendships until the madness has passed.

@Omlettes 💓 I will.

I'm sorry. It is a bit of an emotional battering isn't it. As I said up thread, this board has been great at allowing me to - from a distance - feel part of a group of wise, funny and intelligent women who think as I do but also allow for discussion. It doesn't beat 'IRL' interactions but helps not to feel so alone!

You're in the US now, I think you said? I'm up here in the TRA paradise called Canada. I feel you sis.

I have seen people suggesting we categorize purely by weight or arm length which is frankly ridiculous but who would even want to watch the "Humans with longer arms" category rather than the male and female championships? It doesn't have much of a ring to it.

@Zita60 - how good to have these references in one place. Ahhh, the irony is that my friend asked "what evidence do you have for your first claim that the two boxers are DSD"- but then blocked me no more than five minutes later!

Anyone who treats you like that was no friend.

I have many friends who I don't agree with politically, but I don't dump/block them over it.

You've just read that online and assumed it to be true haven't you?