This is getting lonely

[Daffydaff]

I posted ages ago about how I lost some friends to 'the other side', one of whom was like a brother to me but called me a transphobe because he's full on TWAW. We no longer speak. I also broached it with a few close female friends who don't agree with me, but although we remain friends I can't help feel a smidge of distance from them as a result.

This all burnt me, I can't lie. I kept my head down, I felt lonely, but this board has been a great resource and I follow some amazing women on X. I began to feel confident again in my beliefs, more eloquent, and thought about raising my head above the parapet.

Except... I just have. Over the boxing controversy. An old friend posted expressing faux confusion about the whole thing, saying the best woman won, the IOC wouldn't have allowed the fight to go ahead if it wasn't fair, it was very sneery and dismissive and put it into such black and white terms (bigots Vs kindness) that I wanted to speak up.

Too scared to comment directly on his post I sent a message, so apologetic in tone and with a hundred caveats, even saying (like a coward) 'I don't espouse the views in your post' but instead couched it in terms of 'the reporting was so hopeless that this is what I've found and it may help you' (he's a journalist by trade so I appealed to this aspect). I then simply said that there was some concern about male puberty / XY chromosome / DSD / unfair advantage / IOC are not some benevolent institution / equality at stake etc etc. I even said 'I may not be right' just to ram it home that I was objectively giving a differing perspective. Such mealy mouthed guff but I was nervous. Ugh.

He responded by saying 'yes the IOC is corrupt (errrr, not what he said in his post) but what proof did I have to claim the two boxers have DSD' He then blocked me a few minutes later.

Anyway. I'm beyond depressed by this. I just wanted another vent. Sorry if I'm taking up a post complaining again, but what does one do? I hate being silent. I feel like a weak feminist. I have visions of me speaking up and not caring who I lose and giving courage to any others out there who feel like me. But the reality is that I'm scared of losing all my friends! They've been family to me. I was part of a community of misfits, norm-defying and expressive and embracing all and sundry. And now I feel like the bad guy. And I've also recently moved to a new country and a very liberal city where I've already nodded along to people with opposing views to mine. It's bizarre. I'm so outspoken with everything else, happily respectful and courteous and able to present coherent opinions on politics and religion and gun control (I'm in a republican state!) but this feels like a cult.

Thanks for reading.

I got kicked off (for life!) Design mom's blog for commenting that I thought sports should be categorised by sex not gender. Apparently this makes me a terrible bigot. She argued that competition doesn't really matter, it's the taking part that counts. She is currently posting from the Olympics on how thrilling it is to watch women win in athletics. 🤪

That could well be the case. But if they were registered female at birth, and I’m assuming had no obvious penis and was brought up as a girl, and as far as they know have always been female, they don’t think they deserve all the hatred online saying things like ‘get this MAN out of women’s sport’ calling them scum etc. Being born intersex was not a choice.

Continuing to take part in female competition once you are aware you are male and have the advantages of going through male puberty IS a choice.

He is a cheat.

Competing against women when they knew the results of the sex tests and that it was unsafe for them was a choice though.

It's like a heavyweight selfiding as a lightweight and everyone saying they're the one that's vulnerable.

Great summary @DancingNotDrowning

-You realize there's two individuals that were banned?

• If the ban was so unjust, why on earth didn't they appeal it to CAS/withdraw the appeal? Should have been easy-peasy?
• How did the IBA corrupt the CAS-accredited labs? -How do you account for the fact Khelif was found ineligible not just by IBA, but also another boxing organisation, along with several others?

If they are suffering from the DSD (intersex) which seems to fit the criteria, then they know. They will have experienced a male puberty when all the things that happen to boys happened, and none of the things that happen to girls did.

All those things mean two things- they are not a girl as had been assumed , and they can’t play sports against girls, especially not contact sports.

I have huge sympathy for the family, but realistically they have known Imane’s sex for years and it was confirmed by the sex testing two years ago- which they didn’t challenge.

To compete against women now is unkind and unfair, as well as extremely dangerous.

Even if the DSD wasn’t discovered at birth, it would have been picked up at puberty when they didn’t start menstruation. They’re 25 I think. They will have know for several years by now.

OP I know how you feel. But know that many women on here agree with you and many more people around the world are waking up from the genderwang madness

Nobody deserves abuse but you don't get given a place in women's sports as compensation because you've had a hard life. Where's the compassion for the women?

@Daffydaff I don't think this is your fault. It's clear from your post that even though you and your friends have differing viewpoints, you're happy to still to be friends.

Your friends, on the other hand, can't seem to stomach being around someone who has a different POV. Which is ridiculous.

I have had many friends in the past who were religious, we agreed to disagree and sometimes it makes for some good conversations.

Someone who can't talk to you because you think differently on one issue has clearly based their beliefs on a very shaky foundation.

I do appreciate this doesn't make your day to day any easier.

I think a few people might have distanced themselves, I actually think it's more because they don't actually know what they think themselves.

Now you've reassured yourself - you and your faith can retire safe in the knowledge that you don't have to use your critical faculties any longer and you get to keep your bessie mates. Hard choices.

It's all a Russian conspiracy......😎

Agreed.
If there's been male puberty, the individuals need to compete in the male category. If they're not good enough to qualify for that, then they can continue to box, of course, but at the competitive level they can qualify at, against others of the same sex as themselves. It's respectful to slot in where you belong.

They went through male puberty and didn't grow breasts or have periods. They must have known they were male long before they failed their sex tests

No breasts or menstruation by the age of 16; instead a spurt of male puberty and what is known in some African countries as 'penis at 12' when the testosterone receptors kick in with those with DSDs...it is highly unlikely that questions, suspicions and investigations were not pursued.

Off twitter more nuanced conversations are possible. It need not be all about name calling and conspiracies.

Why can’t you be friends with people you disagree with? It’s all about acceptance and learning. Maybe you’ll change your opinion listening to another view, or maybe not. Shouldn’t put a wedge in between friendship.

@MissScarletInTheBallroom

All of these friends are in the U.K.! I've only recently moved to America but know it's a whole other ball game here so I'll be navigating it differently that's for sure.

I have the same problem in many forums. It is a cult. You either mumble along to the accepted catechism or get thrown beyond the pale. No other choices.

I've been having fun participating on mastodon, but the entire thing is all-TWAW-all-the-time. Any instances that don't agree (eg spinster.xyz) are blocked.

It does feel awful to stay silent just so you can keep reading fun posts about hiking and cats. I haven't found any solution either.

I have a horrible feeling it's not my fault. (Horrible because it means there's nothing I can do. I'm powerless.) So long as others want to be in a cult, then short of therapeutic intervention which I'm not in a position to do there's nothing I can do about it.

I can. They can't! And while I won't change my mind on something as fundamental as biology I do accept there are some aspects I could learn (which is why I also follow some trans people on X). I don't think I'd ever block someone unless they're actively wishing harm on another group or individual.

One thing that struck me about your OP was the mention of your friendship group being the "misfits". I suspect that has quite a bearing on the attitudes held. A recognition and sympathy for other misfits which is what they perceive these boxers and maybe trans people as. "These misfits are part of our gang". It kind of switches off the sense of fairness for other people and gives a feeling of camaraderie with other "victims" of societal expectation. Us against the world stuff.
That might be partly what's going on.

Ahhh well that’s their problem then and it’s hard, but you have to accept that’s not on you. I wouldn’t want to be friends with such narrow minded extremists - as that is what they are verging on when you don’t tolerate someone else’s opinion.

I know it's a horrible lesson to learn but these are not real friends.

Real friendship is not conditional on holding the same beliefs. Whilst I wouldn't be friends with someone who was, for example, racist or homophobic, believing that women deserve to have a word for themselves and some single sex spaces and sports is clearly nothing like racism or homophobia. It's being painted in that light by people who are afraid of debate because they know their position doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

Stay strong, OP. This has happened to a lot of people, including those in the public eye such as Graham Linehan and Hadley Freeman. You can derive enormous satisfaction from knowing, not only that you are in the right, but that you stood by what was right when you could have gone along with the crowd. One day you'll be completely vindicated.

Thank you. I'm sorry you've also lost friends over this. It's just crazy to me that this is THE most divisive issue I've ever known, so much so that I'm too nervous to post in public even though what I say isn't that controversial (or wasn't until 5 years ago). And my friends know me. I'm a lefty lover of people who once jumped into a canal to save a pigeon. I haven't suddenly turned into a nazi.

As an aside, I think this is what peaked me, when my favourite feminist writers and thinkers were suddenly accused of being right wing fascists. I thought 'they can't all have changed so suddenly' so I looked into it more and more and lo and behold... I realised I was in good company.

And this is a very confusing aspect of it, because there are other trans people who agree with you and I, that biology hasn't changed but their transition has helped the dysmorphia surrounding it (sorry if I've simplified that or spoken for you, I'm in a rush haha). Also see the vitriol surrounding those who detransition. But you're the one who is transphobic? I think - as some trans people have suggested - that these louder voices are the ones who are treating this as a 'movement' rather than a genuine dysmorphia. Gender fluid enthusiasts or fetishists or do gooders who are shouting more loudly than those who have genuine dysmorphia.

Again, sorry for any over simplification