This is getting lonely

[Daffydaff]

I posted ages ago about how I lost some friends to 'the other side', one of whom was like a brother to me but called me a transphobe because he's full on TWAW. We no longer speak. I also broached it with a few close female friends who don't agree with me, but although we remain friends I can't help feel a smidge of distance from them as a result.

This all burnt me, I can't lie. I kept my head down, I felt lonely, but this board has been a great resource and I follow some amazing women on X. I began to feel confident again in my beliefs, more eloquent, and thought about raising my head above the parapet.

Except... I just have. Over the boxing controversy. An old friend posted expressing faux confusion about the whole thing, saying the best woman won, the IOC wouldn't have allowed the fight to go ahead if it wasn't fair, it was very sneery and dismissive and put it into such black and white terms (bigots Vs kindness) that I wanted to speak up.

Too scared to comment directly on his post I sent a message, so apologetic in tone and with a hundred caveats, even saying (like a coward) 'I don't espouse the views in your post' but instead couched it in terms of 'the reporting was so hopeless that this is what I've found and it may help you' (he's a journalist by trade so I appealed to this aspect). I then simply said that there was some concern about male puberty / XY chromosome / DSD / unfair advantage / IOC are not some benevolent institution / equality at stake etc etc. I even said 'I may not be right' just to ram it home that I was objectively giving a differing perspective. Such mealy mouthed guff but I was nervous. Ugh.

He responded by saying 'yes the IOC is corrupt (errrr, not what he said in his post) but what proof did I have to claim the two boxers have DSD' He then blocked me a few minutes later.

Anyway. I'm beyond depressed by this. I just wanted another vent. Sorry if I'm taking up a post complaining again, but what does one do? I hate being silent. I feel like a weak feminist. I have visions of me speaking up and not caring who I lose and giving courage to any others out there who feel like me. But the reality is that I'm scared of losing all my friends! They've been family to me. I was part of a community of misfits, norm-defying and expressive and embracing all and sundry. And now I feel like the bad guy. And I've also recently moved to a new country and a very liberal city where I've already nodded along to people with opposing views to mine. It's bizarre. I'm so outspoken with everything else, happily respectful and courteous and able to present coherent opinions on politics and religion and gun control (I'm in a republican state!) but this feels like a cult.

Thanks for reading.

I think the fact that your friend blocked you rather than responding speaks volumes. He probably knows he is wrong but is too stubborn to admit it.

Hi OP - a journalist blocking a friend who has a different view isn’t much of a journalist. If it’s too outing to say were you are on this thread (USA if in a Republican state?) name change and post here another time asking for info on any women’s rights groups in your area and start seeking these out on Twitter - if you can grow your friendship network and get involved with similar minded people it will lessen your sense of isolation from current friends and give you a place to vent. I’ve been there and been denounced as a bigot (while going through cancer treatment) and dropped by friends #BeKind. Don’t beat yourself up for not being a big brave outspoken women’s rights defender all the time every time however much you want to. Seeds I planted years ago with friends who were not heavily invested either way (but were part of the #bekind brigade) have flourished over the past year and they have increased contact with me in recent times because they knew I was someone they could start to express and explore their changing views with.

Thank you. And this board has been great. I first peaked a few years ago and the voices here have been invaluable in making me feel like I'm not going mad! I never really join the discussions for some reason, being an avid observer instead, but maybe I will and maybe that will help balance the real life side of things.

Anyway, thanks for your message. I feel a bit like an immature idiot now I've posted this ("but I'm losing my fwends!") but my friendships have been my anchor for much of my life and I just don't know which of them aren't going to block me next haha

I hear you @Daffydaff . I felt I had, at last, taken one step forward. Now I'm back at the beginning. It's easier for them to shout us down (and boy do they shout); not to answer the questions we ask; not to think about any of it, about the harm this is doing to so many in so many ways. Not to think about who is benefitting from that harm.

I'm sorry. I've lost friends over this issue too and it's gutting. But if people are willing to believe you're hateful and evil for having a different view to them (aka reality is real) then you have to assume you're better off without them. It never seems to occur to these people to say, let's agree to disagree, or I think you're wrong but I'm happy to listen and discuss it. It always goes straight to bad feeling and ending a friendship.

I think the truth matters. I think speaking up is brave. And it is also lonely and a bit scary. But you haven't done anything wrong. Keep reminding yourself of that. And spend time with people who love you and who would never ditch you over different beliefs or ideologies.

Just taking olympics specifically, I’m not sure about the 2nd person, I haven’t researched, but the first person was born a female and is a female. Not trans at all, just happens to have higher levels of testosterone or something. So the posts I am seeing on Facebook calling her a man are nasty, as well as incorrect. She has never been a man.

Oh, good advice! I shall do this.

And I'm sorry for your experience too. The dropping of friends for their views is just such a new thing I think - I remember feeling disappointed with some friends and family over Brexit, and some people take 'breaks' if arguements get heated, but yes. #BeKind my arse.

I like what you said about seeds. The two close friends I mentioned are #bekind but I know, I KNOW, they will feel as I do about a few of these issues if actually challenged on them. I actually reached out to one a while back, at her request to 'educate' her on the matter, and although she said she was going to respond with some counter points I feel like she's just a few short scrabbles to the top before she also peaks. But if she doesn't then that's ok too, I much prefer her stance and friendship to 'being right'.

Get your facts straight. You don't want to look like an idiot, right?
www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5134185-co-owner-of-reddux-writes-a-timeline-of-the-growing-discussion-around-iba-truth-and-ioc-truth?reply=137285728

This. He'd have to admit he fell for the emperor's new clothes whilst the emperor was walking around stark bollock naked.

People don't like being wrong in general, and especially not when they're misogynists and the person pointing out their ideological capture and emotion based arguments are women.

Why do you want to be friends with someone like this? Find some new friends!

Unfortunately your friends have hearts bigger than their brains.

And they care more about someone they’ve never met, than they do about you.

Stop engaging with them when they spout bollocks, and look around for new friends.

It’s a real shame, but you aren’t alone. It’s a certain of human history, that people stick to what they want to believe in preference to what they know. It’s why new science struggles to be accepted.

I live in hope and optimism that over the next few days more information will be shared and people will look a bit silly.

To those talking specifically about the Olympics bit, my message to my friend had just been to present a reason why women (and others) might be concerned. I didn't even say 'she's a man'. His post (as a journalist no less) was vague and dismissive and he clearly needed to do more research because the faux confusion was just disingenuous. And I didn't mention anything about trans @Notamum12345577 because that isn't what it's about.

I have lost a friend over the boxing controversy too, @Daffydaff, so I can sympathise.

One interesting thing here re the amount of people insisting the two boxers in question are natural born females…

Can we assume it means they agree it would be a really, really bad thing if a biological male got in the ring with a woman?

Yes, I've had people say that Carini was just a sore loser and then confidently declare that Khelif has a uterus and a vagina. When I've asked how they know that, they say 'I read it somewhere.' Then they say 'She's a woman with high testosterone.' When I've tried to explain about secondary sexual characteristics and it not being about testosterone testing, they go all 'But it says 'female on her passport' and 'I've seen pictures of her childhood and she was definitely raised as a little girl.'. When I've tried to explain the meaningless of all that, I can see them looking at me as if I've been watching GB News or listening to Tucker Carlson, or something. Then they go on to 'Well, it must have been hard for her growing up in Algeria and now all this.' They don't think about the women, often from similar backgrounds, who are being crushed by all this. It basically all comes down to 'You're being mean.' (To men.)

Thanks again for the comments everyone. I woke up this morning (I'm a few hours behind you all) so despondent that I just wanted to shout into the universe. Thanks for listening. Some good tips. And as I mentioned upthread I'm going to try and join in here too more.

You are absolutely right. ~They are not true friends. A close friend of mine voted for Brexit. I was furious with her (edited to say - in my mind, not out loud) , mainly for being so bloody STUPID and incapable of foreseeing the difficulties, when she is an intelligent woman. But she is still a close friend I love dearly. I have close friends with radically different views from mine on Israel and Palestine, on trans teens. They are still good friends. I do enjoy friendship with likeminded people but would hate to live in an echo chamber.

You have posted another MN thread, which has an X thread linked to it. That is better research that’s well established respected websites is it?
Whether she should have been allowed to compete in 2 minds about, yes probably unfair to the other women. But she is not nor has ever been a man.

That’s fair enough, I was mentioning it though as you mentioned the olympics and the boxing, and I have seen a lot of posts in various places calling her a man, when she has never been one, was born a woman. So not saying you did, but I mentioned it as it is in same vein.

Yes, I do think that.

Such a good point.

OP, I feel your pain with all of this. I had the biggest argument of my life with my sister 2 years ago and we don't talk since. I've tentatively brought it up with others and get no response, which I assume means they don' t agree with me. I have nobody to talk to IRL and it's making me feel so alone.

The thing is that it's likely they were born male with ambiguous genitalia which caused them to be recorded as a girl. At puberty their internal testes produced testosterone and they went through male puberty. This means they were born male with a disorder and will always be male and not welcome in women's boxing.

I'm sorry OP, it's really upsetting to lose people you thought were friends because they can't deal with having different views.

For what it's worth, you sound lovely. I'm a trans man and I've lost a lot of friends due to my beliefs (I'll always say I'm a biologically female trans man, but apparently that's transphobic) and it's hurt each time because I wouldn't end a friendship over it.

Definitely join in more on here - most of mumsnet is honestly so amazing and it makes me feel less lonely on the days when I really miss my friends.

Your 'friend' sounds like a bit of a shit tbh. I'd like to say he'll feel like a right twat but it's clear a lot of people have a lot invested in wanting be right.
And this isn't even that complicated.
We don't split the Olympics into male and female based on whether the contestants prefer trousers or dresses.
We do it based on whether someone is biologically male or female because it isn't fair for females to compete against male people who have had all the substantial physiological advantage of male puberty, and all the additional strength or speed that brings.
The boxer is XY and went through male puberty. This is why we split the categories.
I have zero respect for anyone still trying to muddy the water on this. Its not complicated. They're arguing for the right of biologically male people to punch women in the face.
It might be difficult and unfair to Khalief but it is more difficult and unfair and incredibly dangerous to every single female boxer who goes into that ring.
Your friend has little respect for women.

I'm afraid, OP, that this is one of the reasons I would not live in the US. There's absolutely no room for nuance there. In the UK even people who say that TWAW quite often draw the line at sport. Compare and contrast that to the US, where the default position appears to be that trans women compete in women's categories and objecting to that is bigoted, and where women who do object to it are harshly punished.

I got kicked out of a mainly US based online parenting group simply for saying I don't agree that JK Rowling is a Nazi and trying to give some of the UK/Scottish context to some of her tweets.

It seems as though, over there, you're either a Trump supporter or a trans activist. If you make it clear that you're not one, they'll assume you are the other.

@Notamum12345577 yours is a spectacularly poorly informed post.

the facts are:

• IK failed a “gender test”

• the test was required by the international boxing association and carried out by an independent lab

• IK did not appeal the ban resulting from the test

• the IOC rules on participation are that you can participate in whichever category you want

• the IOC made a statement that this was “not a DSD case” they then withdrew that statement and issued a correction.

from those facts we can conclude that IK suffers from a DSD. They are male.

that doesn’t negate that their life has been difficult and possibly traumatic, it absolutely does negate their “right” to fight women.