This is getting lonely

[Daffydaff]

I posted ages ago about how I lost some friends to 'the other side', one of whom was like a brother to me but called me a transphobe because he's full on TWAW. We no longer speak. I also broached it with a few close female friends who don't agree with me, but although we remain friends I can't help feel a smidge of distance from them as a result.

This all burnt me, I can't lie. I kept my head down, I felt lonely, but this board has been a great resource and I follow some amazing women on X. I began to feel confident again in my beliefs, more eloquent, and thought about raising my head above the parapet.

Except... I just have. Over the boxing controversy. An old friend posted expressing faux confusion about the whole thing, saying the best woman won, the IOC wouldn't have allowed the fight to go ahead if it wasn't fair, it was very sneery and dismissive and put it into such black and white terms (bigots Vs kindness) that I wanted to speak up.

Too scared to comment directly on his post I sent a message, so apologetic in tone and with a hundred caveats, even saying (like a coward) 'I don't espouse the views in your post' but instead couched it in terms of 'the reporting was so hopeless that this is what I've found and it may help you' (he's a journalist by trade so I appealed to this aspect). I then simply said that there was some concern about male puberty / XY chromosome / DSD / unfair advantage / IOC are not some benevolent institution / equality at stake etc etc. I even said 'I may not be right' just to ram it home that I was objectively giving a differing perspective. Such mealy mouthed guff but I was nervous. Ugh.

He responded by saying 'yes the IOC is corrupt (errrr, not what he said in his post) but what proof did I have to claim the two boxers have DSD' He then blocked me a few minutes later.

Anyway. I'm beyond depressed by this. I just wanted another vent. Sorry if I'm taking up a post complaining again, but what does one do? I hate being silent. I feel like a weak feminist. I have visions of me speaking up and not caring who I lose and giving courage to any others out there who feel like me. But the reality is that I'm scared of losing all my friends! They've been family to me. I was part of a community of misfits, norm-defying and expressive and embracing all and sundry. And now I feel like the bad guy. And I've also recently moved to a new country and a very liberal city where I've already nodded along to people with opposing views to mine. It's bizarre. I'm so outspoken with everything else, happily respectful and courteous and able to present coherent opinions on politics and religion and gun control (I'm in a republican state!) but this feels like a cult.

Thanks for reading.

Sympathy. Sounds as though your first move should be to think about how to make some new friends from a different network from the first lot, with whom you can explore the new, outspoken you. Maybe look for a radical feminist group, or a free speech group, or something like that? Perhaps even if the majority there turn out to have different views from you on some other things that are important to you (e.g. guns) that might be nourishing - even positive, as demonstrating that it's possible to respect one another as individuals while disagreeing on some important things. FWIW I'd recommend not bending over backwards to be apologetic and mealy-mouthed when expressing your own opinions. I've found it's more effective to keep what I say very short, but also very clear. That way if they just want to change the subject, that's ok, and I don't feel I've betrayed myself, and it's easier for them to do that if there weren't many words from me. OTOH if they want to carry on the conversation it's for them to do the next careful choice of words!

It's up to you how you choose to move forward. You can continue to butt heads over this issue and lose friends, you can ignore them when they come out with stuff you don't agree with or you can quietly distance yourself from people who don't hold the same views as you. If this is your line in the sand then I wouldn't bother arguing with people, I would just drop them.

That poor boxer. Imane Khelif isn’t a man and ‘failed’ her testing by the IBA (run by a Russian national) after beating a Russian opponent. Her tests have never been repeated or the information made public, which, surely is Russian had smoked out a man illegally fighting, they would have. Alright, she doesn’t look feminine but if that’s the criteria, there are scores of other women who should also be mocked worldwide. Her Italian opponent is also a member of the far right and is known for nasty rhetoric. She isn’t a victim here. I don’t notice people being so pearly clutchingly horrified at the actual rapist taking part in the games.

@cupcaske123 but that's the thing, I'm not even choosing to argue, but simply to correct some factual mistakes, or present a differing opinion. I am happy to live and let live and have friends with opinions that differ from mine! But the reaction has been so extreme that I'm just left feeling a bit bereft.

You're right though, it's up to me how I choose to move forward. Currently I want to make friends with people and so will keep quiet and try and spot the signs of an ally.

I think you went about the conversation wrongly tbh.

instead of talking about chromosomes/puberty, it would have been factual and much easier to say that the athlete failed a “gender test” last year conducted by international boxing. And therefore that raises some questions about wtf is going on at the IOC.

plus if you want some general advice on the trans issue that is costing you friends, you should probably moderate your views. Alright, transwomen are biological men. But you can still call them transwomen. And if they want to be called “she” then that isn’t hurting you, is it? I appreciate other issues such as single sex spaces do have very problematic issues associated with them though. And sports of course. Extremism in any form does not go down well. You don’t need to say twaw or tw are not w. You could just say tw are tw.

💐 It is so disheartening but you are not weak, you were extremely brave to speak up. With hindsight, your very reasonable message to your friend might have been better as a comment under his post as it would have created sunlight and got other people quietly thinking.

Sadly there are some people (like your friend) who will never change their mind once they’ve made it up, and that’s because they’re so entrenched in their opinions and their beliefs. Now that is rather bigoted of them, isn’t it?

Re the PP upthread referencing the rapist. That doesn’t help your argument my dear. Guess what, I was absolutely up in arms about it. You bringing it into this thread here only helps to emphasise the utterly immoral, downright stupid and cruel behaviour of the IOC. They are not fit for purpose.

Her Italian opponent is also a member of the far right and is known for nasty

That's ok then. Phew! Would be completely different if she was a socialist!

It would be naive to assume that they don’t manipulate for political ideologies.

@GiantPandaAttacks - can you name the Russian opponent? You may find that difficult but I’d be interested if you have some information that the board is missing.

You are missing a lot of information here which has come out the past two days. I suggest you read a little bit more before posting misinformation again.

@jenniferSomebody that's a good idea. I think it's just that I miss talking about things that matter to me, as this does, and being too scared to raise it feels so wrong to me.

Also 100% agree about not bending over backwards. I was just trying to present a different perspective and not be the placed in the bigot camp, but look where it got me anyway. Blocked.

Can you link any of this missing information as I can’t find anything other than the humiliation she’s being subjected to.

@Daffydaff IF there is a next time regarding the boxer, just post this link without comment.
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womensrights/5134185-co-owner-of-reddux-writes-a-timeline-of-the-growing-discussion-around-iba-truth-and-ioc-truth?reply=137285728

I also agree with pp it's time to make new friends.

EDIT - @GiantPandaAttacks this is the link. Your boxer didn't lose to a Russian.

Try reading any of the several threads about the matter in this forum. Let's not make this another such thread.

What a load of absolute nonsense.

@vanana

In his post he had said the IBA was shady and corrupt so couldn't be believed, and then said the IOC wouldn't let the fight go ahead if it was unfair. So my original - if badly worded and mealy mouthed and handwringing message - was to point out that - as you say - there are concerns that that the IOC need to explain better.

I'm not sure what you mean though by moderate my views? My views are the same as most of the women on this board? I'm respectful, I have not misgendered, I called my new friend's ex husband who has transitioned 'she' and didn't imply I felt otherwise. But yes, I don't believe 'she' is a woman. How are my views already not moderate considering I'm on the FWR board?

When you challenge people you need to be prepared for pushback. People don't like being corrected. If you're prepared to lose the friendship then be assertive, no need to use apologetic language, just state the facts as you see them.

@cupcaske123

Yep. I'm annoyed with myself for being so apologetic. I was just burnt quite badly by my old friend the first time I questioned his stance (he was closer to me than my actual brothers) that I've hit a blind spot. I'm usually quite eloquent and can discuss things passionately without losing friends over it! I'm just a bit despondent today is all, this post is probably a bit self indulgent to be fair.

If you're reading of the information on here - much of it from people actually qualified in things like medicine, genetics, etc - as 'humiliation' of Imane Khelif, there may not be much point in linking you to anything else, it looks like you have made your mind up in advance.
I could suggest you look at the several existing threads but I'm not sure if there's any point. It's entirely up to you whether or not you want to do that, or stick to your 'humiliation' line. We'll continue trying to have a reasonable evidence-based discussion - not always succeeding, but at least trying.

Oh well as long as it's only right wing women being put at risk of serious injury or death then that's ok (and of course they can be labelled as such regardless of whether or not it's true as we're in upside down clown world where facts and reality don't matter - I note no evidence about Carini being right wing, I doubt there is any)

At this point it would be safer for everyone to just self ID as winning a medal and the IOC can decide whose fantasy takes precedence based on ideological purity and biological sex.

No women will actually win medals but there will be records stating they have done.

2024, identifying hard as 1984

Don’t let these arguments divide you from your friends. This kind of problem is being thrown out to public debate when ordinary it would be dealt with swiftly and effectively by sporting authorities. The media has turned it into a public spat by stoking up one side against the other. If the other women didn’t want to fight these contestants they wouldn’t. I assume this boxer has had a long career and hasn’t received any public or media backlash until now. Don’t let the media break up your relationships, turn the Olympics off and say you haven’t followed it.

Sorry, Daffydaff, I got sidetracked by a derail, I should have ignored it - I want to say that I feel for you, it is incredibly difficult being on this side of the debate, when there is so much irrationality and vitriol on the other side. When the line is drawn down the middle of friendship groups, that is really painful.
You have support here, though I know well that that's no substitute for friends in real life.
There are some glimmers of hope that the tide is turning on the unquestioning acceptance of trans rights, but in the meantime, yes it is lonely. Be strong, take care.

@CorruptedCauldron

Thank you. And I agree. This is what I mean by my vision of being brave not matched with my reality yet! And I'm sure I will have friends who feel as I do but are in similar boats.

Your second paragraph is exactly right. After my first post (a few years back now), about losing my friend to this, it took a while (and an attempted olive branch by me) to realise that if someone can be so emphatic in their views that they are happy to block you then they weren't a good friend after all. But it still bloody hurts.

Remember to BeKind, after all this is a sport where the aim is to knock out your opponent and cause the most amount of physical damage.

Not true, plenty of former women opponents have spoken up and just look at their faces (plus the physique of khelif).

Those brave enough to speak despite intense pressure not to suffered huge abuse from doing so including on this thread - being labeled far right and their right to safe competition dismissed.

Khelif could stop all this with a simple cheek swab test or having previously challenged the ban at an independent tribunal. Why not, if female? Takes a matter of seconds. Less intrusive and undignified than a COVID test.