Where to find reputable sources re boxing controversy

[DSDornot]

I have been reading up on this. I fully oppose men in women's spaces and have been enraged by the Olympic boxing fiasco.
I follow JK, Sharron Davies and Martina Navratilova on X, Plus other more scientific commentators and believe in all they write.
However, I accept that I'm reading/listening to my own echo chamber. Apart from vile abuse and anonymous accounts, is there anyone notable I should look at who will give the opposite view (that self ID or DSD should be allowed in women's sport) - just so I can assess and know that I have a balanced viewpoint?

What does 'living as a woman mean'? It's basically nonsense. This person has XY chromosomes, and would have gone through male puberty.

Also, what's so horrific about having a cheek swab? Female athletes have previously said they are fine with it. The only reason to object to it is if you have something to hid surely? If 'she' was a female with a DSD 'she' would still qualify to compete in the female category.

This bollocks about 'everyone is being mean and nasty' is just emotional manipulation trotted out when reality hits and you don't like what you see.

Do you know any young males? I have 3 sons in that age range.

Khelif is 25 so in Tokyo will have been approx 21. Young males in their early 20s are still strong and stronger than women but not quite at their full potential. Probably enough to raise eyebrows but perhaps not enough to fully conclude this isn't an outlier very strong female.

Four more years and a lot of working out since Tokyo and the maleness, the peak of male strength will have become undeniably apparent to the point where questions could not go unanswered and ignored.

I can see how my eldest son has gone from still looking a bit baby faced, a tad androgynous, a little on the weedy side in late teens to early twenties to looking very much like a fully fledged man as he heads to nearly 25.

The others are a bit younger and my 20 year old if you prettied him up a bit probably still has enough androgyny to use the 'you're discriminating against masculine looking women you bigot' argument if I was attempting to put him in female sport.

Testosterone builds year on year resulting in a masculising effect through their 20s, 30s and probably early 40s until it starts to decline with age.

Reduxx magazine (who broke the story initially) might be a good place to start:

x.com/slatzism/status/1819427537740558848?s=46

Reduxx is very good on this.

Very little information is publicly available so far. The IBA did physical tests, which Khelif and Lin failed. The IOC is going by paper documents, like their passports, and the fact that the two fighters were "brought up as girls and have always fought as women." These three things are all completely irrelevant. The IOC also say that the two were "born as women" but have not clarified what they mean by that.

Judging by the above, Khelif and Lin must be male with DSDs, or they could not have failed the IBA tests.

The IBA is due to make a statement about this on Monday.

NB the issue is nothing to do with trans people, though it should be a warning as to what can happen if we allow people to change birth certificates and passports to the opposite sex.

My Facebook is flooded with pages I don't follow telling me Imane is a woman. I've never been overwhelmed like this before. There's certainly a lot of algorithms working hard on this.

@skelter83 the 2023 tests were carried out by an independent Indian lab that is accredited by the CAS and the ISO. The results went to a majority vote by the IAB about whether to disqualify as a result (only 1 country voted against disqualification). Both boxers had the opportunity to appeal the results to the CAS. One didn't appeal at all, the other lodged an appeal and then withdrew it. If it were untrue, why would they not appeal to the CAS, which is completely independent from the IAB and makes all decisions public so there can be no further uncertainty?

As for testing being 'horrific' - it's a cheek swab. That is, sticking a cotton bud in your mouth and wiggling it around for a few seconds. It doesn't even have to swipe your tonsils like a covid test. Until 1999 all female athletes did it (and only had to do it once in their career). It much less intrusive than drug testing, which has to be done many many times and involves someone watching you pee.

Apologies, too late to edit typo in the above. The lab is ISO and CAP accredited. (All other references to CAS stand.)

The TRAS are getting desperate. What - with no puberty blockers, and now no automatic entry to the female category under threat - the world must feel like it is about to end; and hence their 'existence' too

Same here. But then I've commented on some, saying that Khelif is a man, and liked others that say the same, so I guess they are giving me more and more about Khelif, whatever it says.

Same here.

The information regarding the Algerian indicates they were female at birth - this was by an independent professional. I feel this is clear and objective and very different from self ID. I have not seen the details regarding the Tawainse athlete

That’s interesting. I had loads of pages, which I don’t follow, relating to the sport/the Olympics, appear in my feed this morning too.

Mine too. I had a 'friend' post about bigots and transphobes on his page - he's had several partners all make allegations of sexual assault against him and a very murky history. If I'm on the opposite side to him then that's alright by me!

Mine too. I had a 'friend' post about bigots and transphobes on his page - he's had several partners all make allegations of sexual assault against him and a very murky history. If I'm on the opposite side to him then that's alright by me!

It's becoming a bit of a pattern how people screaming at women fighting for our rights turn out to have a murky history. 🤔

The two independent tests carried out by court of sport arbitration labs state that they are both male.

Please read the article linked in this thread.

It is the most straight forward in terms of facts, and the politics behind the IOC opposing the IBA.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5134185-co-owner-of-reddux-writes-a-timeline-of-the-growing-discussion-around-iba-truth-and-ioc-truth

Same! With people crying about JKR, terfs and all the usual nonsense.

This is a decent article

https://www.thetimes.com/article/456c78e1-0c83-47f7-aad5-54215b1b5d10?shareToken=2b08c7856dd3af2c67435099a819277e

I have just read the Reddux article above and whilst I understand the points made I am not sure I agree. I think for someone who was at birth designated as female lived a life as a female, treated as a female to be told they are male and the have all the public controversy around them it must be extremely difficult and very distressing. I believe that sex is binary and openly state this, I think women are born and people can change as biology rules, but this case is different and that is why I am think it is difficult and more nuanced. I do think it is desperately sad.

I think women are born and people can change as biology rules, but this case is different and that is why I am think it is difficult and more nuanced.

What do you mean by this?

I agree that it must be tough finding out your body is different to what you thought. I am sympathetic to people with DSDs and we should have compassion for that difficult experience in their lives.

But the fact is that men with DSDs are just that…men. However sad the circumstances, they shouldn’t get a pass into women’s sport. Even more so when women’s safety is at stake. We have to draw clear lines for sport in particular, because biology is the be all and end all in sport.

I'm sorry but this is not a woman or a person who thinks they are female

Also just to add, I don’t believe that these boxers only found out about their maleness last year when they were sex tested. As many PPs have said across many threads, the most likely DSD they have is 5ARD which is usually detected at puberty when no female puberty happens and male puberty happens instead. Many people then go on to live as male from there in accordance with their biology.

My post above is aimed at people who disagree with that, even if we take the absolute most charitable view of these boxers, and accept they didn’t know or they can’t accept it because it’s too distressing, we still have to draw a line and say ‘sorry, no’ to them joining in in women’s sport.

It is - probably - a very sad case

But note that it's feminists getting the blame for that too, which is ludicrous.

Had the right, fair testing process been followed then these boxers wouldn't have had their lives scrutinised in this way. Female athletes never wanted sex testing dropped.

But it turns out women don't really have the right to fair sport competition, in the way men do. What we are allowed is granted by men/ male institutions and can be take it away at any point, just as the IOC has done.

It is SO telling that the people online currently scolding feminists are the same that scold us for not wishing to include males with trans identities in sports, changing rooms, etc, even though this case has bugger all to do with trans. These people don't care about discovering actual facts, they just spot another situation they can use to attack and control the women that dare step out of line.

Khelif alongside a female boxer in Algeria, quite different, funny that.

This is an interesting article about someone who was an Olympic athlete who had to cope with this condition, back in the bad old days and worth a read if you are interested. There was probably a thread on it here from when it was published.
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6772989/Intersex-skiing-champion-say-transgender-women-NOT-compete-female-events.html