Where to find reputable sources re boxing controversy

[DSDornot]

I have been reading up on this. I fully oppose men in women's spaces and have been enraged by the Olympic boxing fiasco.
I follow JK, Sharron Davies and Martina Navratilova on X, Plus other more scientific commentators and believe in all they write.
However, I accept that I'm reading/listening to my own echo chamber. Apart from vile abuse and anonymous accounts, is there anyone notable I should look at who will give the opposite view (that self ID or DSD should be allowed in women's sport) - just so I can assess and know that I have a balanced viewpoint?

If they have a DSD you have no idea what puberty they went through.

I feel the same way about this I did about Semenya. This is a human who has thought they were female for a big chunk of their life. We have no idea what their medical history is and nor do we need to know - their biology is their business.

Sports need to bring back proper sex verification but in the meantime this is a human being and I don't think they deserve this vitriol. They aren't trans, we keep saying DSDs aren't relevant to the debate so maybe we should stick to that line in this case.

I'm sure I read that Caster was allowed to play outside as a boy would while the girls of the family had to do housework.

Their biology is the business of the women they're competing against, sorry.

They are not claiming trans identities, so that debate seems to be moot to begin with.

If they have a DSD you have no idea what puberty they went through.

We have a very good idea, knowing as we do that Khelif has XY chromosomes there are limited DSDs he can have, and it ain't Swyer Syndrome therefore he's a man who underwent male puberty.

Their biology is their business

It is until it affects other people, such as those he is competing against.

They aren't trans, we keep saying DSDs aren't relevant to the debate so maybe we should stick to that line in this case.

Nobody here is talking about trans. Misrepresent a GC position all you like, but it's entirely consistent with gender criticism to not want a man competing in women's sports, even if he really really wants to beat up women.

There are links after link to reputable sources on every thread on the subject here.
The most comprehensive in terms of adressing the bullshit is from the woman who blew this up in the first place
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5134185-co-owne

I have to say its frustrating when people seem not to read the threads so the same issues keep coming up.
We have been doing it for years now and DSDs have been adressed so many times since 2018.

Their biology is their business

It is until it affects other people, such as those he is competing against.

👏👏👏👏

That's pretty much the full gender debate in a nutshell.

This is an actual person you are talking about

You talk about them in the same way you do any male

Maybe just think about human beings, it's very sad how much hate and cruelty there is

Yeah, Khelif and his supporters hate women.

It's shocking how brazen it is.

I think every day about how much hate and cruelty and disempowerment and marginalisation and abuse and dehumanisation happens to female people every day all over the world and it breaks my fucking heart.

I simply do not have enough left to care very much about a boy who had a sad and traumatic discovery about his biological sex a long time ago and now knowingly enters female-only sports because he, his trainers and his government believe him getting his chance to win is more important than that the less interestign female people should have sports classes in which they can compete that are suitable for their physical capabilities.

I'm sorry but the accusations of hate, cruelty, vitriol, etc. seem disingenuous to me and just another form of "be kind." No questions, no debate, etc. A person who's chosen to be in the public eye in sports is going to get questions. I just don't feel sorry for male athletes who've decided to try their luck against the "easy pickings" of female competitors when there's money at stake.

Could you perhaps follow some popular science/genetics accounts? they tend to respond to whats in the news with useful summaries of the science (which i find frustratingly lacking)
New Scientist? Scientific American? Adam Rutherford from UCL often shares interesting genetics articles from his lab (although he has a focus on race rather than sex)

It is until it affects other people, such as those he is competing against.

Particularly when competing involves a man punching a woman in the face to try and knock her out or score points with a clean hit.

The only trans athlete competing in boxing at the olympics is a trans man.
There are no men competing in female categories
I think its very important that we use correct information here, and the OP is asking for information about what XY female can mean; it doesnt always equate to a male puberty, it doesnt always mean elevated male hormones.
There are XY females who have more muscle mass due to their Y chromosome, but it isnt a universal rule.
I think trying to understand the complex dynamics of DSD is important, because otherwise we see sweeping statements that just arent true

The ‘women’s’ 800m final in Rio in 2016 showed us what the future would look like if we allowed men with DSDs to compete in women’s events. I remember questioning it at the time but the expectation was that we should all just go along with it because if you didn’t you were cruel and nasty.

What I’ve seen is on one side calm, logical, scientific reasoning and on the other it’s fury, hysteria and insults. I follow a netball discussion group on X and the organiser has blocked anyone who has so much as raised a question about whether the situation is fair or safe for women athletes. They won’t allow debate or discussion and if you won’t fall into line you’re out. They hide behind the line of boxing is bad too so that if a woman is badly injured they can blame the sport instead of their poster person.

i would say that i have seen calm logical reasoning on both sides, and a fair bit of fury and insults on both sides
I think im on a different "side" of the argument to you, but that doesnt mean im right and youre wrong. Im not slinging insults and fury. Im also someone with a science background and we're looking at the same data and interpreting it differently.
I'd also say that repeatedly saying that women who have only found out their sex chromosome genotype at (on average) 18 years old are "men" with no understanding of the many ways that this genotype can affect development is pretty insulting.

The media want to stoke up conflict, to do this they need to withhold facts. It’s the same with most issues, Brexit being an example. The aim of the exercise is to stir up engagement not provide information

You talk about data and being scientific and then it’s straight to being the word police because feelings matter most of all.

So let’s say someone finds out at 18 that they have XY chromosomes and have been through male puberty with all the physical advantages that entails. And their path forward is to spend the next 6 years training for a sport which involves punching women in the head. And yet the thing we all have to be most concerned about is their feelings? They can call themselves whatever they want, dress and behave however they please but their biological reality demands that they play combat sport with men not women.

im not being the word police, and im not talking at all about feelings
Im just saying that not everyone with XY does actually undergo male puberty, there are many different iterations of XY females.
We are also ignoring XX males here who typically have normal testosterone levels for a male puberty (although it is impaired in adulthood)
I just dont agree that our labels of male and female are completely beholden to genotype for a very very small group of people

ive made no argument for participation in sport at all

Jeez. “XY females”, “XX males”. The desperate clinging on to vanishingly rare diagnoses is ridiculous.

This. It honestly feels like wilful ignorance at this point. Some of them just clearly don’t want to understand the science on this / haven’t read the excellent explanations from specialists in DSDs and human biology.

Stop talking about trans identifying people. This is completely irrelevant and the only reason Team Khelif keep mentioning it is to try to shoehorn accusations of "transphobia" around. Noby is saying that, just stop it.

OP is asking for credibke details about this boxing controversy, not random insights into DSDs and chromosome disorders. Khelif cannot possibly have one of the combinations of XY chromosomes and also be female, the only possibility in this case is that Khelif went though puberty as a man.

The reasons why this is the case have been discussed at length elsewhere.

No one is female at birth then male later on. It's one or the other.

@PrimalLass
I also believe that you cannot change from male to female or vice versa. In his case a baby has no choice over its sex it is assigned at birth which is why I think these cases are different and why they are so sad.

Wilful ignorance is exactly what it is,I'm seeing the same guff on forums where 90% of the posters are male.

Believe your eyes,not the lies.

Khelif hasn't been a baby for 25 years. He will have known he is male for quite some time (probably years) before getting in the ring, taking sporting chances and medals from women and putting them at risk.

That was the choice of an adult.

There's a point where these stories cease to be sad and just become stories of abuse against women who are gaslighted and can't fight back.

Puberty revealing actual biological sex at 18? Vanishingly unlikely.

Around 12 to 15, yes. Coincidentally, Khelif took up boxing at 15. How very remarkable.