Where to find reputable sources re boxing controversy

[DSDornot]

I have been reading up on this. I fully oppose men in women's spaces and have been enraged by the Olympic boxing fiasco.
I follow JK, Sharron Davies and Martina Navratilova on X, Plus other more scientific commentators and believe in all they write.
However, I accept that I'm reading/listening to my own echo chamber. Apart from vile abuse and anonymous accounts, is there anyone notable I should look at who will give the opposite view (that self ID or DSD should be allowed in women's sport) - just so I can assess and know that I have a balanced viewpoint?

They invited the controversy by choosing to exploit a loophole in this games’ inclusion criteria, knowing they had already been disqualified by IBA whose criteria state women boxers must be XX. IBA have confirmed already they didn’t exclude them because of testosterone. As others said, they didn’t appeal their exclusion. Yes, the IOC carries some responsibility here for lax, unjust criteria but these two boxers chose to exploit their unfair advantage. That’s on them. My sympathy is reserved for the women boxers who have trained so hard for these games, been put in harm’s way and dealt a great injustice.

If they have a DSD you have no idea what puberty they went through.
Yes we do. Those who have DSDs will be either female or male, within the scope of the DSD. Khelif and Lin are XY males and will have gone through male puberty.

There are no men competing in female categories Yes there are; Khelif and Lin are two of them.

In his case a baby has no choice over its sex it is assigned at birth
Goddess above, is there no end to this? No baby is "assigned" a sex at birth, the child's sex was set at conception. Humans cannot change sex, whether the presence of a DSD or not.

I think for someone who was at birth designated as female lived a life as a female, treated as a female to be told they are male and the have all the public controversy around them it must be extremely difficult and very distressing.

They will have known they're male for a long time. Initially at puberty and without question when the IBA disqualified them from women's competition in 2023.

It will be a big adjustment for them, sure. But that's no reason to compromise women's safety and opportunities in the sport, wouldn't you agree?

You could worse than look back over the many threads on this board that have discussed the issue. All you need to know is there. There are women here who work in biological sciences, and the threads are very informative. You may be new to this issue, but plenty of others are not.

There are at least three male persons competing in women's events at this year's olympics - the two boxers, plus footballer, Brarbra Banda. They may all have passports which say 'female' due to their birth condition of having a DSD - but the reality is they are biologically male; and all present as such in their everyday life.

Women are actual people too, you know - and when it comes to a women's sporting event - it is their feelings, their rights and their protections which matter most.

This is entirely the fault of the IOC. They could have put a stop to this by now and instead could have created an 'open' category. They chose not to for ideological reasons. Blame them for the hurt feelings of these male athletes.

But it shouldn't be a tricky issue. If they have "testes pumping out testosterone" (even though they are internal and not fully developed) then they have male advantage.

These athletes are not trans but, for the IOC, whose "inclusive" policy is to allow transwomen (biological males) to compete in women's categories (if their individual governing bodies allow it), banning these two boxers for being XY would mean they would have to ban all transwomen from all women's sports, because they would be effectively admitting that male biology does confer unfair advantage. The extent to which politics is influencing the IOC's statements should not be underestimated.

Sex is recorded at birth. In the case of babies with an undetected DSD - the sex recorded on the birth certificate turns out to be wrong.

Rather than just feeling " sad" why not resolve to understand the issue and then campaign for what you consider to an appropriate outcome.

is there anyone notable I should look at who will give the opposite view (that self ID or DSD should be allowed in women's sport)

There are plenty of notable people giving the specific view that these 2 boxers qualify for the female.category in the Olympics. Beginning with the IOC itself. Whether they are credible I'll leave you to.judge.

However, there cannot be any credible.people giving the general view that self ID should be allowed in women's sport - because that idea is ridiculous. It's like asking for notable people talking about the theory that Bill Gates swaps the sun for different ones every day.

There is a women's category for a reason - biology. If you base entrance rules on anything other than biology it ceases to be a women's category and the reason for the category ceases to exist.

I think the difficulty with finding intellectually rigorous and logical arguments going the other way is that there aren't any.
👏👏👏

As an aside, the mention of the Matrix is interesting. I'm currently reading Helen Joyce's "TRANS", and she states that the writer admits that the story is a "trans metaphor" 🤔

Oh for goodness sake
Someone with a DSD usually isn't diagnosed until puberty, when they go through an atypical puberty due to having the DSD.

This language of "male puberty" is overstating. And their puberty is their business.

I don't think people with an Y chromosome should be competing in womens sports but speculating about what DSD they have and what their puberty was like is intrusive and unnecessary.

Khelif and Lin are XY males and will have gone through male puberty

You have absolutely no idea whether or not this is true and are trying to oversimplify a set of xomplex medical conditions (potentially involving genotypes like XXY or chimaerism) for your own political ends.

It's gross. In the case of Khelif, this is a human being with a medical disorder, not a "man who really, really likes beating up women" as pp says.

The ire should be focused on the IOC, not the individuals involved.

Sad, yes.

Different enough to let someone compete in the wrong category, no.

I want to go to Cardiff. I book a room.at the Cardiff Holiday Inn and buy a train ticket to Cardiff. I check the departure board to find which platform has the Cardiff train and get on it.

Part way through the journey the train enters an unusually long tunnel and the driver starts making announcements about arrival time in Paris.

When the train arrives at its destination I try to check into the Holiday Inn, only to find I have no room because I'm booked into the Cardiff branch and I'm trying to check into the Paris one.

It's very distressing. All my paperwork says I'm in Cardiff. It's not my fault there was a glitch on the train departure board that gave the wrong information (although I should have noticed the announcements.on the train and started formulating a plan for.what I'd do in Paris). But there's still no room at the Inn because I'm n Paris, not Cardiff, and quite rightly the Paris hotel won't chuck out another guest to make space.for me.

Something can be difficult, and distressing, and not the fault of the person affected - and still be true.

And you have to deal.with what is real, not.what was originally wished for.

My sadness for males with a DSD evaporates when they choose to punch women in the face for a living.

I agree.

To stretch your analogy a bit, what's happening now is like you got off the train thinking you were in Cardiff, to a jeering load of passengers with pitchforks claiming you went through the wrong tunnel on purpose because you hate Welsh people 😉

To stretch your analogy a bit, what's happening now is like you got off the train thinking you were in Cardiff, to a jeering load of passengers with pitchforks claiming you went through the wrong tunnel on purpose because you hate Welsh people

No, the other passengers are angry because you insist on turfing them out of their hotel rooms.

And punch them in the face.

The ire should be focused on the IOC, not the individuals involved.

I agree with this

In the case of Khelif, this is a human being with a medical disorder, not a "man who really, really likes beating up women" as pp says.

However, Khelif knows they failed two eligibility tests, didn't appeal that result and has chosen to box against women anyway. I'm not sure that c

covers them in glory

(hit send too soon)

Yeah,it's a bit of a deal breaker.

@NoBinturongsHereMate

There is a women's category for a reason - biology. If you base entrance rules on anything other than biology it ceases to be a women's category and the reason for the category ceases to exist.

I agree, but want to add that in sport and beyond, the impact of biology includes second and third order impacts ie the way our opportunities are shaped by how society treats our sex (sexism) and the way that leads us to behave and to see ourselves (socialisation).

For example Chess should be a level playing field and I hope one day will, but in the short term female people have second and third order headwinds that male people do not, justifying the existence of women-only tournaments where women can measure themselves against people who have faced the same headwinds.

What you have written about Caster Semenya is simply incorrect. We know Semenya has a DSD that specifically affects male feotuses, has internal testes and has gone through male puberty. This isn't scurrilous internet gossip, it was the basis of Semnya's legal case against DSD athletes having to reduce testosterone levels. If mens and womens categories in sport are split on the basis of biology, then the biology of the participants is the business of the organisers. If these categories aren't based on biology, how are they divided?

What did I write that was "simply incorrect"? Semenya was raised female. Semenya's puberty and medical condition should remain private. You can read nothing into my other views from me saying I think people's medical history is their business.

Semenya is also an issue for the IOC. We can bring up the problems of people with DSDs competing in a way that doesn't invade their privacy or cause hostility against them.

Yes true. But they may well feel that if the rules say they can what's the problem. Especially if they believe themselves to be a woman.

I just think we should be focussed on the organisations, not the individuals.

It hasn't remained private, as Semenya has taken the case to various courts, where it has been stated that Semenya is male XY with 5-ARD. This is public information. So we can discuss it.

Semenya (and Khelif et al) could have dealt withbit in private, by dropping out of female competition when they discovered their male bodies.

Semenya chose to deny reality and fight his classification in court, which is why we know which DSD Semenya has.

Khelif didn't appeal the ban at the CAS, so there isn't any publicly available information, but if he really was a woman it would be a simple case to argue.

They could. It's a big ask for someone who has spent their whole life training, comes from a poor background so the money is welcome, and believes they are a woman and the rules allow them to compete.

I can just about remember when the East Europeans competed athletes with Kleinfelters (46 XXY) as women and I don't recall the vitriol being aimed at the women. More at the countries who were cheating having them on their teams.

Fine. Not the same for Khelif is it?