Where to find reputable sources re boxing controversy

[DSDornot]

I have been reading up on this. I fully oppose men in women's spaces and have been enraged by the Olympic boxing fiasco.
I follow JK, Sharron Davies and Martina Navratilova on X, Plus other more scientific commentators and believe in all they write.
However, I accept that I'm reading/listening to my own echo chamber. Apart from vile abuse and anonymous accounts, is there anyone notable I should look at who will give the opposite view (that self ID or DSD should be allowed in women's sport) - just so I can assess and know that I have a balanced viewpoint?

Semenya is also an issue for the IOC. We can bring up the problems of people with DSDs competing in a way that doesn't invade their privacy or cause hostility against them.

I think the main issue is that the IOC are geared towards letting male people compete in womens sports (see their identity driven rules), so it is not in their best interest to see athletes with a DSD as an issue.
This means other people have no other option but to discuss and campaign for this to change so the IOC have to engage in a discussion.

So yes, medical information does need to be made public, just like in cases of doping athletes medical information is made public. It seems to be only way to ensure sports are played fairly, to be open and honest about it, in case of the Chinese swimmers and in case of the male boxers. There is no difference between the two situations and both situations are causing quite correctly massive damage to the IOC's reputation.

As for hostility towards the boxers, it is very strong as it does constitute making an Olympic sport out of a male person beating up a female person and in the year of actions against VAWG quite hard to stomach. The fact both boxers flatly refuse to engage in any other way than to shout they are women is not helping their case. I do feel for them about death threats, completely unnecessary and we can make the case they are lying cheats without it going that far

Sure, I imagine it would be a mental burden for him to appeal. But knowing that he was unable to compete in women's boxing under either IBA or WBO criteria, and is unwilling to appeal, he still made the decision to compete in the most contact-y of contact sports.

So he considers his own feelings less important than the safety of the women he is boxing. That's a him problem.

You were incorrect in that details of Semenya's DSD are publicly available via CAS legal documentation.

Professional athletes do not have privacy when it comes to biology. Have a read of the UKAD's doping policy: https://www.ukad.org.uk/testing-process. Athletes can be asked for a urine sample anywhere, at any time; it impinges on their private life. Christine Ohuruogu was banned for missing 3 out of competition tests (not actually failing one), and warned other athletes about complacency. Rio Ferdinand is still quite bitter about his ban for missing a drug test ("I forgot the test guy was there and went to lunch").

Puberty is the dividing line in our sexually dimorphic species, so yes puberty is relevant for athletes. If they don't like that they're free to take up a mixed sex sport like equestrian.

Could you self-identify as French, even though you have a Welsh accent? 🤔

Fine. Not the same for Khelif is it?

You were talking about Caster Semenya. Glad you've accepted that it's reasonable to discuss that case. We'll have to agree to differ on the Khelif and Yu Ting cases.

What about the women who come from poorer countries and spent their whole lives training only to be told there's a man-oops, a 'woman'-who'd be really sad if he-she-couldn't compete against women?

Blame that on the IOC/cheating countries, not the people with medical disorders.

I was actually talking about a broader principle of how appropriate it is to dig into people's private medical history to make a point, regardless of if its been aired in court.
My opinion is talking about "male puberty" regarding people with DSDs is inappropriate and unnecessarily intrusive.
Womens sports for XX only is all you need to say.

Womens sports for XX only is all you need to say.

I didn't actually say that, and I'm not personally sure about athletes with CAIS or Swyers Syndrome. I'm not an expert. I think there should be more research and open discussions.

But if you have gone through a male puberty like Semenya and probably Khelif and Yu Ting, you shouldn't compete against women in the female class.

Perhaps they could compete against "trans men" and "non binary AFABs" in a mixed class?

Perhaps they could compete against "trans men" and "non binary AFABs" in a mixed class?

Why would the safety of female non-binary and trans (transmen) any less important than for the other female athletes?

It was a flippant comment. I don't think males should compete against females.

We can blame the IOC and not deny agency to athletes by giving them a pass to compete against women because they have "a medical disorder" which we're also chided for asking proof of.

The general public does not need proof of anyone's medical disorders

Does personal responsibility and a question of morals not come into it at all then?

It used to be legal to rape your wife but presumably decent men chose not to do this.

At the point you're an adult and you know you are male with all the advantage that confers and the risk it poses to women's safety and life then you are making an informed choice to continue harming women with your fists plus taking away their medals and their opportunity.

Of course the IOC holds a lot of the blame here but the 'it's not my fault I'm just exploiting a loophole' isn't exactly a sympathetic argument.

I think womens sport for XX only is cleanest. Sad for people with CAIS and Swyers, but no different than other DSDs where people have been bought up believing themselves female.

I think you know what was meant there.

I don't appreciate being told off for "chiding" when I'm making a reasonable point about privacy.

What's happening with Khelif has gone beyond womens rights into a full blown witch hunt and its completely unnecessary. Our ire should be directed at the IOC, not the individual.

I'm not even meaning just you specifically. The general tone (chiding) has been "Gasp. How dare anyone cruelly question these athletes." I feel that is a matter of public interest when countries are sending athletes to these games with the presumption that there will be fairness, and at the very least it should be made clear to the other athletes.

Also, people have repeatedly said that these athletes made the choice to continue competing against women, so yes they deserve some criticism, even if you want to continue to declare their pure innocence. Oh, and this is hardly a witch hunt.

"General tone" where? I'm mainly in GC spaces so what I've seen is the opposite.

Numerous commenters as well as myself have noted a sudden influx of Facebook posts declaring that these boxers are female and it's ignorant and cruel to speculate otherwise. I've seen them from friends as well as random people I don't follow.

Yeah it's very tricky. I think it might be a backlash to what's on Twatter.

I've basically decided to stay out of it until it becomes clear why they failed sex verification, which it will.

Partly why I'm sticking to the general principle about medical information. Sharing private information in a slightly dehumanised way ("they went through male puberty") makes it too easy for others to say we are obsessed with genitals and being prejudiced.

XX only in female sport. Waiting for proof these boxers are XX.

Well the CAS testing says they're XY. I think the IBA press conference just reiterated that.

So ... what now?

IBA also saying that the Taiwanese and Algerian boxing federations have written to the IBA on behalf of their athletes to expressly deny them permission to share anything further about that testing.

So ... now what?

I think Cassie is waiting for the IOC to tell us the truth. The same IOC who is deeply invested in getting men into female sport and covering it up.