Where to find reputable sources re boxing controversy

[DSDornot]

I have been reading up on this. I fully oppose men in women's spaces and have been enraged by the Olympic boxing fiasco.
I follow JK, Sharron Davies and Martina Navratilova on X, Plus other more scientific commentators and believe in all they write.
However, I accept that I'm reading/listening to my own echo chamber. Apart from vile abuse and anonymous accounts, is there anyone notable I should look at who will give the opposite view (that self ID or DSD should be allowed in women's sport) - just so I can assess and know that I have a balanced viewpoint?

Because as far as I can see, there has been no confirmation that this woman has had a genetic testing - a discredited organisation has disqualified her and can’t/won’t produce its evidence.

Even if she did have genetic testing how absolutely horrific, to be subject to that when you were born a woman, lived entirely as a woman etc.

Trans women should not be boxing female boxers, that’s a given - this isn’t the same. It’s much more nuanced and there’s a lot of women saying some very nasty things about a woman who has done nothing wrong. There’s nothing OK about that.

They got disqualified from another boxing tournament since then for failing the sex/gender test. In fairness, its possible (however unlikely) that was the first time they found out they were XY, if they hadn't had access to medical investigations during pubity for whatever reason. In which case they may have completed in good faith 4 years ago. They certainly seem to have been incorrectly registered at birth and raised as female, so whenever they found out it must have been an awful shock, and they have my greatest sympathy for that.

However now they (and everyone else) do know, so it's about making the right choices based on the information currently available. It's awful for the individual to suddenly have to stop due to a medical condition, as it's obviously not there fault, but there are loads of medical conditions that would stop you completing. Its just the same as if someone has to take steroids for medical reasons, they can't complete because the integrity of fairness in sport overrides the individual.

Because as far as I can see, there has been no confirmation that this woman has had a genetic testing - a discredited organisation has disqualified her and can’t/won’t produce its evidence.

They have, according to them. There is evidence, you just choose to ignore it. It's in their minutes. It was voted on.

They can't publish the boxers' medical records, and they say the tests were made available to the IOC.

The boxers chose not to appeal to the Court of Arbitration for Sport, even when it meant a lost medal for Yu Ting.

The World Boxing Organization has also backed up the IBA. The IOC also made a mistake in a press conference yesterday when they claimed it wasn't a "DSD case".

They had to make a formal correction that they hadn't meant to say that, they meant a "transgender case" because it quite obviously is a "DSD case" like Caster Semenya.

Have you done any research on that particular organisation?

https://www.3wiresports.com/articles/2024/8/3/0d4ucn50bmvbndhhqjohaneccoqueq

He knew in 2023, (probably years earlier) his coaches knew his government knew.

Follow the money - he will get $50k his coaches and national federation will get $25k.

He's a man, punching women in the face,there's nothing 'nuanced' about it.

Have you done any research on that particular organisation?

Yes. Can you prove their testing protocol is questionable? It was carried out through independent laboratories, but please do supply any evidence you have that this wasn't the case.

@skelter83 addressing your questions ...

'She competed in Tokyo and lost. Why was this not an issue then?

She clearly didn’t beat most women then, but 4 years later, she’s still the same biological make up. Nothing has changed, apart from, presumably, her training.'

Like many I know more about boxing than I did last week! So Kehlif is now aged 25. In Tokyo they were younger. The peak for male boxers is around 30 (a bit younger for lighter weight classes, this makes strength as according to my Google searches the peak strength for most men is 30-35). So Kehlif will have more experience fighting, more training (and may be better training as I imagine that starting out they would not attract the best coaches) and more age-related strength advantage.

You clearly haven’t, and should, research the IBA and all the controversy around them.

I’m often on the other side of these discussion about trans issues. I’m really shocked at the cruelty towards this person.

What has been "whipped up" is that persistent and troublesome issue of women's rights and protections, and how biological reality is at the heart of the matter - regardless of whether it is a 'trans/genderidentity' issue, or whether it is an issue of athletes with DSDs

Away from twitter and social media you will be able to consider the issue a bit more in the light of plain facts, scientific evidence and material reality...all of which aare the most important aspects of the discussion/debate.

What have you made of the comments about the two female boxers? That they should just try harder, not good enough and so on? Is that unkind too?

The IBA issue seems to come down to the fact they're Russian, and russia has not been able to compete at the Olympics because of the war in Ukraine.

This does not mean that genetic/chromosomal testing is inaccurate, though.

If you do, you'll find that the Taiwanese boxer did not contest the results, although the Algerian boxer did initially - - but then withdrew that objection. Thee were forbidden from competing in the women's event at the world championships on account of it.

i know some people just want this issue to go away because for them trans 'inclusion' is quite clearly impacted by the facts of chromosomal/genetic testing. and if two people who were mistakenly registered as female at birth but who went on to go through male puberty can be banned then so, obviously, would be any man who identifies as awoman in the guise of 'gender identity/trans rights.

That is why Clarity around sex and what it means is central to this issue - and why those who oppose clarity continue to try to divert and obfuscate.

Of course, that is the most charitable explanation......but it seems highly unlikely that someone who believes themself to be a girl would reach 16 without either breast growth or menstruation, withour further investigation - and especialy if they had stated to show signs of male puberty...which these two clearly had.

You clearly haven’t, and should, research the IBA and all the controversy around them.

Feel free to answer my question 🤷‍♀️

I'm shocked that so many are cutting make hurty feels above female safety!! What's wrong with you all?

Surely given the severity of what could happen if there's any doubt then safety should be prioritised above ALL else. Smdh

So far, on one side (that of the boxer being male), we have:

1. A podcast from a reputable sports scientist, Ross Tucker.
2. A Quillette article by a renowned legal professor with expertise in women's sport
3. A Twitter thread by Harvard academic Carol Hooven, an expert in human evolutionary biology who has written a book on testosterone
4. A Twitter thread by developmental biologist Dr Emma Hilton
5. A report on the news site Wire Sports that the IBA sent a letter to the IOC saying that genetic testing had shown the boxer was male
6. Statements from the IBA itself that the boxer shouldn't be allowed to compete against women

What do we have on the other side? A load of wiffle-waffle about passports, "be kind", "identified female at birth" and attempts to obfuscate by pretending that people with XY chromosomes can give birth.

Apart from which, why don't people use their eyes? Khalif looks male. He has a bulge in his shorts. He groped his female opponent's breast. He even thrust his hand down his shorts and re-arranged his testicles.

How much evidence do you need? There is a point at which ignorance tips over into wilful stupidity.

*putting MALE hurty feels

@RoyalCorgi well said. I’m getting really tired of people disregarding those sources, plus pages and pages of threads here dissecting and discussing the issue and just popping up going ‘I don’t get it, they’re women aren’t they?’.

I think some of them are probably deliberately trying to spread disinformation, which doesn't work here as well as it does on Reddit/Twitter/Facebook/Tiktok/Instagram.

You’re probably right @Ereshkigalangcleg
I’m glad there are women here with much more patience than me for continuing to explain, share sources, debunk etc.

That point was passed some time ago......now we're into the realms of fantastical thinking, objective dissociation, and full on Orweliian dystopia.

According to some PPs, all a man needs to do to convince the world is get beaten by a couple of women early in his career and we’ll all disbelieve any rational, scientific basis for segregation and roll over. Good grief.