Is this a safe place to ask a question without being flamed?

[StrumpersPlunkett]

I have a question relating to transgender issues and working through my thoughts on things but it feels like a conversation I am only allowed to have in my head.
Is this a safe place to talk it through?

How many women are assaulted by men presenting as men in women only spaces?

It is not so much about the potential for assault as the need for privacy and dignity for women and girls. We have single sex spaces in the sorts of situations in which the body, nakedness, undress, biological function are heightened or central. Most women feel uncomfortable, at least, around strange men when in such situations.

It matters not how someone identifies; they remain the sex they are. People instinctively pick up on clues as they relate to sex.

Do I feel that someone I know - who has now been living as a woman longer than she ever lived as a man, should be able to use female pronouns and spaces? - Yes

What does it mean to " live as a woman"? How can someone live as a woman when they are not a woman? A woman is an adult human female - with the biology that reflects that. How one dresses, wears one's hair etc has nothing essential to do with being a woman.

Argh when I have tried to look at these things on line it is all from polarised perspectives.

Some people believe a woman is just an idea in someone's head, or a set of stereotypical mannerisms, feelings, or presentations; whereas most others realise that a woman is an adult human female. As simple as that.

Gender and 'gender identity', especially, is a post modernistic social construct; a made up set of prescriptions.

Sex is biology and the body and all that flows from that.

OP in addition to the excellent books recommend above you also might want to check out this one

sheila-jeffreys.com/book/gender-hurts/

And if you look on YouTube you will find some very interesting videos of Helen Joyce speaking on the subject.

Also this is a good website for a feminist analysis of transgenderism and womanhood.

thenewbacklash.blogspot.com/?m=1

You cannot beat Germaine Greer for a straight down the line assessment of what it means to be a woman; to be female.

For more general texts that don't touch in any way on "trans" you could try something like "Misogynies" by Joan Smith, who wrote it in the late 80s. She and many others (Julie Bindel included) often wrote about the issue as it pertained to attitudes apparent in the UK around the time of the Yorkshire Ripper killings in the late 70s.

And then there's more academic-type old-school feminism like Andrea Dworkin and others. Forgive me, it's a long time since I read any "feminist texts" as such but this was the sort of thing we were reading back in the day. Germaine Greer Female Eunuch (and she does mention those she refers to as "Pantomime Dames"). Overall, 2nd wave feminism is what you're looking for.

Oh, and NOT bloody Judith (or Pseudith as I like to call her) Butler. The woman is not a feminist by any stretch.

Right off to my favourite book shop tomorrow armed with a list.

Thank you for helping to make sense of the muddled thoughts in my head!

@StrumpersPlunkett

Regarding feminism, I would recommend the classic text, what I consider to be the Bible for feminists, and that is The Second Sex by Simone de Beauvoir. It's all in there, but it is a very long read! So you might prefer to start with The Female Eunuch by Germaine Greer - another classic.

I hope you do choose to read The Second Sex. It will change the way you see EVERYTHING.

I think so much of my confusion is caught up in the stereotyped view of what it is to be a woman that thoughts on important issues are mixed up

We swim.in these sterotypes from birth (additional book recommendation, Gina Rippon'sThe Gendered Brain) so it can take a bit of unpicking.

See, for example, the suggestion by a PP that 'living as a woman' involves wearing women's clothing. I spend at least 90% of my waking hours in jeans, trainers and T-shirt. The jeans are 'women's jeans' because I have a woman's body - with narrow waist and large hips and thighs (which, infuriatingly means I'm usually also stuck with less durable fabric and shit pockets). The trainers are 'women's trainers because I have women's feet - typically we have narrower feet, higher arches, different toe proportions. The T-shirt is a T-shirt, but if I need to wear a coat over it it will be a 'women's coat' because it needs space for breasts and doesn’t need space for a man's larger shoulders. What 'women's clothes' should a transwoman - with a male body - wear in order to 'live as a woman'?

For the feminist understanding of 'what is a woman', it might help to think about what characteristics and life experiences you share with other women (except transmen) and with transwomen but don't share with other men. Are there any that are universal? Are there any that aren't sterotypes? Then think about what you share with all other women (including trransmen) but not with any men (including transwomen).

I'd say that reading list relates to the essential conflict at the heart of the trans concept and how that impacts upon women and girls and children in general.

'Being Trans' is not like being gay ( which just means being same sex attracted) - 'trans' is the framing device or term given to people who, for whatever reason , prefer or feel the need to present as the opposite sex. It doesn't change their sex. It does not make men women.

I suspect that the muddle in your head relates to the fact that you accept, without question, that 'being trans' makes someone the sex they feel they are.
I suggest It is difficult to appreciate the views expressed here if you start off with that foundational belief as your premise.

Invisible Women, by Caroline Criado Perez. A book, but also a blog for bite sized reading and keeping more up to date than a print version can. https://newsletter.carolinecriadoperez.com/

Not strictly about either trans issues or feminism but gets right to the root of why feminism is needed, and why so much of female daily experience is rooted in the female body. And living in a world which ignores that body.

Experiences that can kill us because car safety tests don't use female crash dummies, because policewomen's stab vests are designed for policemen, because medical trials see female hormonal cycles (and blood test reference levels, and liver processing speed, and immune system difference, and everyrhing else) as a 'complication' to be ignored or eliminated rather than as fundamentally important to our treatment.

Do I feel threatened if there is a penis in the cubicle next to me when I have a wee?

Well if I'm in cubicle and a man enters the one next to me wees and leaves I probably wouldn't know so it wouldn't bother me.
But if walks by me I would (probably) know then it might worry me.
If I was in a cubicle with the door wedged open by the buggy because there isn't enough space to take the buggy in (there never is) so anyone passing can get an eyeful while I wipe myself it would definitely bother me - but my buggy days are long behind me.
If like many women have done I could hear very obviously male 'sounds' of enjoyment emanating from the cubicle next to me I would be very concerned.
If I was washing bloody pants at the sink (thanks peri-menopausal flooding) then a man next to me would bother me.

It highlights the difference between men and women when men say they 'just want to wee' in the ladies because women know we do so much more than 'just wee' in toilets ohh and unlike men who can pop said penis out through a zip fastening we have to either drop or lift our lower garments when we do 'just wee'.

But the reason toilets are always the example used by TWs seeking to enter women's spaces is because they are to a degree separate spaces, but the are also the thin end of the wedge so if we say OK to toilets changing rooms with naked bodies follow (see references to the group of nurses or to Leah Thomas in the female changing room) then it's hospital wards and DV shelters and somehow we ended up with penises in female prison cells. Once we blur the line and say some men can access some women's spaces it becomes almost impossible to say which men and which spaces.

Plus instant validation several times a day. Look - the sign says "Women"!

In response to "living as a woman"....

I've worked with (3) an house shared (1) with a number of trans women.

In my experience their idea of "living as a woman" is incredibly superficial and only relates to overt stereotypes about dress, make up, mannerisms and access to single sex spaces.

Their "lady brains" interestingly don't seem to have been socialised to accept the domestic load, care burdens or employment/pay disadvantages faced by women. Their behaviours once "out" remained intrinsically male in respect of their place in society and the expectations picking and choosing which elements of being female/male they appropriated in any given situation.

Nor had they any sense of womanhood in the sense of appreciation for why single sex spaces were needed.

If a man is so attuned to womanhood as to be a woman then they would argue that single sex space should be protected surely....

The fact they don't demonstrates the fact that however they present, their male entitlement is paramount.

The "my lovely trans friend" is just a NAMALT variant.

All the men in my life are kind and compassionate. They pose no risk to women but they understand why single sex spaces are important and respect that.

Is it not a red flag re: the men who don't? Gender identity is just camouflage/a Trojan horse imho to steamroller women's rights.

As for "trans ally". Why do men need women as allies? They have enough social capital to fight their own battles and to date have been very effective at dismantling women's rights.

It's so bloody frustrating to see women act like turkeys voting for Christmas. But they do because they want to be seen as kind and progressive...because hey female socialisation...and because many women are frightened about pushing back.

Like the witch trials...sink and die = not a witch. Float and we will kill you.

There is NOTHING progressive about gender ideology. It's a great big campaign to enable men to use women and children to validate their fetishes.

I have a fairly simple take on it. I absolutely support someone's right to be a trans woman.

But they are indeed a trans woman and not a biological woman and as such there are certain spaces and opportunities which are not appropriate (and I think in reality most, certainly of the long term transwomen, accept this which is why they have lived harmoniously for decades).

Dress as you please, call yourself what you please but don't expect me to believe that you are now no longer at risk of male cancers because you are miraculously female. It's wrong for this to apply on documents relating to health because however much I might wish not to be heading into menopause, biology says differently.

Being a trans ally shouldn't mean women doing all of the moving over. It should also include men being expected to be more tolerant.

I also think denying the journey you have been on is unhelpful to anyone else experiencing this.

I don't agree that affirm, affirm, affirm is the correct way to support anyone questioning their gender. I think the idea of 'being born in the wrong body' is deeply offensive to disabled people and unhelpful. For some, perhaps living as the opposite sex is the right answer but I don't think it should be the automatic answer, especially when there are other mental health issues of underlying factors like autism at play.

TRAs are awful and do not represent the older type of transexual you describe.

There was a brilliant post a few years ago re: a thought experiment.

I'll do my best to do it justice.

A workplace sets of bathroom facilities - multiple closed cubicles with a hand basin.

They are identical in every way.

One has women in the door. The other men.

Why does a trans woman need to use the one with the label women on it?

What happens if the women decide to appropriate the male facilities and in response the men use the facilities labelled for women?

Would the trans women use the male or female toilets?

I think we know the answer.

It's not about the space/label or facilities. It's about using female single sex spaces for validation and thrills. They want to be where the women are. Where they know it's not wanted.

Just look online for the massive number of posts about subversive behaviours in female toilets.

The book "Trans" is a good straightforward run through of the issues.

I like "Material Girls" but it is possibly a tad too abstract or academic to use as a primer if you're not already a fan of that type of book.

OP if you are referring to the Hampstead Heath ponds, it might be worth googling "Man Friday"...

As for "trans ally". Why do men need women as allies? They have enough social capital to fight their own battles and to date have been very effective at dismantling women's rights.

It is certainly a mystery to me.

It's so bloody frustrating to see women act like turkeys voting for Christmas.

It is.

I think the biggest issues for me is the ideas about 'kind' and 'unkind'. I am a generally 'kind' person, but have some beliefs that would be considered not just 'unkind', but hateful by many people.

The biggest of which is that you cannot change sex and gender is a social construct, based on stereotypes. I am very pro challenging gender stereotypes and believe that you should be able to dress however you like and have whatever hobbies you like, regardless of your sex.

I think there are some extremely 'unkind' people that have caused harm to children by prescribing puberty blockers and putting them on a path towards surgical removal of healthy body parts that is embarrassing and awkward for those children to get out if doubts arise.

It is very worrying (yet totally unsurprising) that trans lobby, started by mainly adult males (transwomen) has swept up so many young girls, many of whom are autistic. Unfortunately it can be shit to be a teenage girl and incredibly awkward to be autistic on top of that. Imagine if you had the option of identifying out of that.

I suspect there is probably a correlation between the trans lobby and the explosion of online porn and celebration of 'kinks'. Again, the victims of which are largely teenage girls. Erosion of sexual boundaries is everywhere in youth culture, anime, kids YouTube, sex education in schools. It is not kind or safe. Parents with valid concerns are cast as Mary Whitehouse figures or like homophobes.

The equivalence of being gender critical with being homophobic and the trans lobby with the fight for gay rights is another area of concern.

As the parent of a gay, autistic teenage daughter (and 2 sons). I am so concerned about the explosion of trans identities in her friendship group. Due to the prevailing wind, I cannot even speak freely with my DC. It is a tightrope walk of not alienating them and pushing them towards 'well meaning' and 'kind' people that are all too ready to help.

I think there are far too many people with 'no skin in the game' that mean well, that want to be inclusive, but who are throwing, mainly, young girls under the bus.

Never heard this one before thank you

Like when IW bangs on about being a REAL WOMAN because she has a piece of paper to say so. I've never in my 41 years said I'm a woman a real woman and here's my certificate to prove it.

This is a great point. We don't enable people who have eating disorders just because they see themselves as heavier than they are. So why should men who think they are women be treated differently. They're basing it on the claim that gender and biological sex are different, which is just an ideology. You might as well claim that obesity can exist only in the brain as well and that if you think you're overweight, you are.

"I guess your confusion as to my response about a 3rd space is perhaps clarified for me when I read the response about swimming spaces in a park in London (sorry can't remember the name) - this seems to be a solution that keeps women safe and respected.
1 mens only
1 women only
1 mixed"

You are talking about the ponds on Hapstead Heath
But herein lies the WHOLE rub.
TRA are refusing to respect this and have demanded access and won it to the womans ponds
Therefor men have a pond all to themselves and access to the other two.
This is patently absurd, as well as the most meanspirited selfish and stealing behaviour imaginable.
The enroachment of these bullies now means it prevents so many women using the Hampstead Ponds wether because of religion, trauma safety or personal dignity.
It took so long to get these spaces in the first place.
Its utterly shameful.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13115349/womens-rights-high-handed-undemocratic-hampstead-female-bathing-pond.html

Ironically there is an action this Sunday to reclaim the pond for women only.
Its a lovely place for a visit and the women would be delighted to see you if you went along.
They would be happy to explain all the issues

Start with Material Girls. The strapline is 'why reality matters to feminism'.

"Ironically there is an action this Sunday to reclaim the pond for women only.
Its a lovely place for a visit and the women would be delighted to see you if you went along.
They would be happy to explain all the issues"

If I were closer I really would! :-)