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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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42
porridgecake · 27/06/2024 20:47

Theeyeballsinthesky · 27/06/2024 20:43

Ah Tbf dawn butler is responsible for one of the best MN threads of all time when she threatened to call the police on us 😆

What??? I would love to read that thread!

lcakethereforeIam · 27/06/2024 20:48

I reread that yesterday 😁 I'd forgotten about the gay giraffes.

Theeyeballsinthesky · 27/06/2024 20:58

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 27/06/2024 20:53

That’s the one!!

I think we were all looking forward to spending a relaxing Christmas together in the cells 😆

Yampy · 27/06/2024 20:58

Sorry I’m going to put this up here, as things are moving very fast the thread I started will get lost & it’s definitely worth a read. It ties in with all this, just shows up all the corruption thats behind a lot of this, how it’s being weaponised by big corp. This toxic movement is destroying the fabric of our society, after reading this I’m more convinced than ever that certain individuals are being paid to stir things up, it’s all just a massive grift for some.

https://wingsoverscotland.com/on-the-frontline-of-the-gender-wars/#more-144993

On the frontline of the Gender Wars

I’m a professional community organiser, and a tenant and housing activist for some 20 years. I saw the old Scottish Tenants Organisation get smashed by Jack McConnell’s government to make way for c…

https://wingsoverscotland.com/on-the-frontline-of-the-gender-wars#more-144993

Sweetpeasaremadeforbees · 27/06/2024 21:18

TBF I used to fancy DT (until I realised how thick he was).

ScrollingLeaves · 27/06/2024 21:54

Yampy · 27/06/2024 20:58

Sorry I’m going to put this up here, as things are moving very fast the thread I started will get lost & it’s definitely worth a read. It ties in with all this, just shows up all the corruption thats behind a lot of this, how it’s being weaponised by big corp. This toxic movement is destroying the fabric of our society, after reading this I’m more convinced than ever that certain individuals are being paid to stir things up, it’s all just a massive grift for some.

https://wingsoverscotland.com/on-the-frontline-of-the-gender-wars/#more-144993

Thank you I have just read this.

It is extra ordinary, not just about the gender queer business but also what goes on in councils, in this case wrecking housing for poor people in back handed ways.

The gender stranglehold is a means for control. They are a bit like the Stasi.

You are right it is destroying society when you see this happening as he describes it from the inside. People who say thus is ‘a single issue’ couldn’t be more wrong.

The writer of that is admirable. He is lucky he survived to carry on with his work. What a lot he has done for the people there in regard to saving housing on their behalf too.

TempestTost · 27/06/2024 22:07

IwantToRetire · 27/06/2024 17:40

Just catching up with thread but refering back to Guardian comments.

I cant quite work out how long ago, but when it was relatively new for the Guardian to allow readers to comment on line. (15? 20? years)

Not sure about other sections, but anything about women / feminism was heavily censored - basically if a woman expressed an opinion that didn't tally with artilce it was deleted. This was long before the gender identity issue being written about. This was about basic feminist issues.

It was quite an eye opener for many women who just sort of assumed as the paper that first had a women's page that was a bit political (thank you Mary Stott#1 who must wondered what has happened to her intentions).

But any doubts that this was maybe about having women with a different analysis of feminist were quickly dismissed as the Guardian then appointed a man who often came on the comments to reprimand women for their thoughts (remind you of anyone) was then appointed to write articles about women / women's issuse. The sucess of the TRAs is because of the underlying much more deeply engrained MRAs that still openly exist.

I got banned for not toeing the line (I think it was 3 strikes and you are out) and still have an email account registered with them, but it is so long ago I cant actually access the email.

So the later dominance of Katherine Viner's committment to queer politics, and Own Jones being allowed to take precedence ove women journalists isn't a surprise.

It makes you suspect that many men on the left actually dont care about trans issues but out of spite align with it to have the "legitimate" position to tell women they are wrong. Their dreams come true.

#1 For anyone who doesn't know about Mary Stott here is a link to a R4 Great Lives series. https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00xpp68 I didn't choose to link to obituaries in the Guardian because by then they were well and truely into "gender" and made it quite clear they had no idea about women's politics.

Well, it seems we are in the same boat, because I also remember when they used to delete anyone who disagreed with their "feminist" writers.

The one that got me finally banned was an "EverydaySexism" bit where Laura What's her name had some man say something about what she was eating, and asked her Twitter followers if this was a case of ES, and they said yes.

Many many people in the comments pointed out that it did not represent any kind of accurate approach to assume that followers of ES on Twitter represent the general population, and a lot of men said that women cajoled them about eating all the time and maybe this wasn't a sex specific thing.

And this was typical - it wasn't just people who disagreed, but people who had sensible points or challenged the accuracy of the articles, basic things like that. All branded sexism and deleted.

Eventually they ran a special article asking for BTL comments on how to deal with disagreeing comments on feminism articles To which the reply was, stop moderating out reasonable disagreement as bigoted. They deleted those and stopped opening feminist articles for comment.

All this has something to do with where the Guardian is today.

INeedAPensieve · 27/06/2024 22:13

Theeyeballsinthesky · 27/06/2024 21:00

This was the best thread I'd ever read on Mumsnet. Well, that one and the one about Fluffy!

Anyway and back to DT, I'm glad there's been some actual condemnation of what he said; though sadly the comments in the Guardian have proved to me that it's definitely full of MRAs. And like someone said in a PP, perhaps it always was and it's just more blatant now.

UtopiaPlanitia · 27/06/2024 22:54

Yampy · 27/06/2024 20:58

Sorry I’m going to put this up here, as things are moving very fast the thread I started will get lost & it’s definitely worth a read. It ties in with all this, just shows up all the corruption thats behind a lot of this, how it’s being weaponised by big corp. This toxic movement is destroying the fabric of our society, after reading this I’m more convinced than ever that certain individuals are being paid to stir things up, it’s all just a massive grift for some.

https://wingsoverscotland.com/on-the-frontline-of-the-gender-wars/#more-144993

It’s a pure mystery to me why so many of these types get jobs in the NGO/Third Sector when it seems as though they can’t actually stand the hoi polloi they’re supposedly hired to help. They seem to view the masses as wayward pets who need bringing into line with exposure to the benefits of 'correct thinking'. It’s all very Fabian socialism of the variety Oscar Wilde criticised.

As Wilde put it:

Certain people "seriously and very sentimentally set themselves to the task of remedying the evils that they see in poverty but their remedies do not cure the disease: they merely prolong it", because, as Wilde argues, "the proper aim is to try and reconstruct society on such a basis that poverty will be impossible...

and

…"the altruistic virtues have really prevented the carrying out of this aim. Just as the worst slave-owners were those who were kind to their slaves, and so prevented the horror of the system being realised by those who suffered from it, and understood by those who contemplated it, so, in the present state of things in England, the people who do most harm are the people who try to do most good."

IwantToRetire · 28/06/2024 00:42

this was typical - it wasn't just people who disagreed, but people who had sensible points or challenged the accuracy of the articles, basic things like that. All branded sexism and deleted.

Eventually they ran a special article asking for BTL comments on how to deal with disagreeing comments on feminism articles To which the reply was, stop moderating out reasonable disagreement as bigoted. They deleted those and stopped opening feminist articles for comment.

All this has something to do with where the Guardian is today.

I think I have a memory of that, but was blocked from posting.

I know now it seems silly, but I was genuinely taken aback. After all this was the Guardian, supposedly full of advanced thinkers, that had let Mary Stott start what was effectively the first online meet up for frustrated women. Had it been the DM or the Telegraph it wouldn't have been a great shock.

So in a way it was a real learning curve about just how deeply entrenched male attitudes towards women are. Clearly 70s Women's Liberation had had no impact on them whatsoever.

And is it any wonder that based on their absolute misogyny and sexism they were so open to the next stage of the backlash against women. TRAs.

Echoed of course by the current state of the Labour Party and women get more acknowledgement from the Tories.

TempestTost · 28/06/2024 01:06

IwantToRetire · 28/06/2024 00:42

this was typical - it wasn't just people who disagreed, but people who had sensible points or challenged the accuracy of the articles, basic things like that. All branded sexism and deleted.

Eventually they ran a special article asking for BTL comments on how to deal with disagreeing comments on feminism articles To which the reply was, stop moderating out reasonable disagreement as bigoted. They deleted those and stopped opening feminist articles for comment.

All this has something to do with where the Guardian is today.

I think I have a memory of that, but was blocked from posting.

I know now it seems silly, but I was genuinely taken aback. After all this was the Guardian, supposedly full of advanced thinkers, that had let Mary Stott start what was effectively the first online meet up for frustrated women. Had it been the DM or the Telegraph it wouldn't have been a great shock.

So in a way it was a real learning curve about just how deeply entrenched male attitudes towards women are. Clearly 70s Women's Liberation had had no impact on them whatsoever.

And is it any wonder that based on their absolute misogyny and sexism they were so open to the next stage of the backlash against women. TRAs.

Echoed of course by the current state of the Labour Party and women get more acknowledgement from the Tories.

I don't disagree with you here, but I would like to be a bit careful about seeing this as men against women.

It's not always easy to tell who is commenting of course, but plenty of the people wanting to shut down the disagreement were women. Women who disagreed, like me, were called men. There were men who would disagree and speak, reasonably, from their own experience about something the article discussed, and they were called bigots. One that really flabbergasted me was an article where a lot of the BTL comments were about a statistical error in the article - these people were accused of being male sexists.

Tbh, in gender ideology, and Id politics generally, I've found women much more taken in. It's very much the same in racial Id politics, maybe even moreso.

TempestTost · 28/06/2024 01:12

UtopiaPlanitia · 27/06/2024 22:54

It’s a pure mystery to me why so many of these types get jobs in the NGO/Third Sector when it seems as though they can’t actually stand the hoi polloi they’re supposedly hired to help. They seem to view the masses as wayward pets who need bringing into line with exposure to the benefits of 'correct thinking'. It’s all very Fabian socialism of the variety Oscar Wilde criticised.

As Wilde put it:

Certain people "seriously and very sentimentally set themselves to the task of remedying the evils that they see in poverty but their remedies do not cure the disease: they merely prolong it", because, as Wilde argues, "the proper aim is to try and reconstruct society on such a basis that poverty will be impossible...

and

…"the altruistic virtues have really prevented the carrying out of this aim. Just as the worst slave-owners were those who were kind to their slaves, and so prevented the horror of the system being realised by those who suffered from it, and understood by those who contemplated it, so, in the present state of things in England, the people who do most harm are the people who try to do most good."

Show quote history

I feel like I'm being very disagreeable this evening - but I think in some ways Wilde's observations almost seem flipped.

It seems like a lot of the progressives are thinking they need to construct some kind of ideal state where poverty is impossible. If only they can reeducate the masses not to vote against their own interests.

Although - maybe that is just the working classes they think of that way. When I think if the really screwed up people, drug addicts and such, in my workplace, it seems like the NGO types mainly want to have them blissed out on easy safe drugs in some kind of state provided tenement and somehow that will solve their problems.

IwantToRetire · 28/06/2024 01:16

I don't disagree with you here, but I would like to be a bit careful about seeing this as men against women.

I think, which is maybe also insulting, is that although women may post comments like that, there is an assumption they are just male hand maids.

ie what used to be called the women who have men in their heads

Whereas, theoretically, women who have gone through some form of consiousness raising would have cleansed their minds of the dominate male narrative telling them how to think, let alone those who want to ingratiate themselves with men.

ie women posting on behalf of men to frantically signal to men they aren't one of the2 hairy legged libbers" or now known as vipers

TempestTost · 28/06/2024 01:36

IwantToRetire · 28/06/2024 01:16

I don't disagree with you here, but I would like to be a bit careful about seeing this as men against women.

I think, which is maybe also insulting, is that although women may post comments like that, there is an assumption they are just male hand maids.

ie what used to be called the women who have men in their heads

Whereas, theoretically, women who have gone through some form of consiousness raising would have cleansed their minds of the dominate male narrative telling them how to think, let alone those who want to ingratiate themselves with men.

ie women posting on behalf of men to frantically signal to men they aren't one of the2 hairy legged libbers" or now known as vipers

Maybe.

I think on the one hand a lot of women with good intentions are very inclined to put "caring" over things like setting good boundaries, or nice feelings over accuracy and clarity.

And then when women become toxic and look to dominate others, rather than expressing that through physical aggression, they tend to resort to social control and attacks through language.

When we are talking about comments on a newspaper article that anyone can read, the focus should really be on what the content, not who said them. Both sexes can say stupid shit or sensible things.

UtopiaPlanitia · 28/06/2024 02:24

TempestTost · 28/06/2024 01:12

I feel like I'm being very disagreeable this evening - but I think in some ways Wilde's observations almost seem flipped.

It seems like a lot of the progressives are thinking they need to construct some kind of ideal state where poverty is impossible. If only they can reeducate the masses not to vote against their own interests.

Although - maybe that is just the working classes they think of that way. When I think if the really screwed up people, drug addicts and such, in my workplace, it seems like the NGO types mainly want to have them blissed out on easy safe drugs in some kind of state provided tenement and somehow that will solve their problems.

Show quote history

Discussion is always welcome Tempest 👍

I always thought that Wilde was saying that the middle class, well-meaning types who go into working with 'the poor' should properly want to or aim to create a state that makes poverty impossible; however, in reality, he believed that what they end up doing simply tinkers around the edges of the problems rather than addressing the root causes of poverty and disadvantage because in order to properly address the root causes the middle classes would have to give up a lot of their own financial and social security and way of life.

And possibly they alienate the people they're wanting to help (or to have vote for them) because they are unable to understand why the working classes largely refuse to vote for socialism. Because they don't understand that working class people are often small 'c' conservative (they definitely were and still are where I'm from) and don't always want the state to be involved in their lives more than it has to be; they often have a culture of pride and independence and don't want handouts that bring interference from government.

It's late here so I hope what I typed made sense 😬

DramaLlamaBangBang · 28/06/2024 07:05

I agree with your definition @UtopiaPlanitia I think it started iff with Marx, who was pretty well off, and lived off his wife's inheritance. He, as an intellectual dreamed that the Working Class would do all the foot soldiering of the Revolution and therefore bring about Utopia. Whether he actually wanted to give up his comfortable life himself- who knows? Then, when actually worldwide when a lot of the working class and people Marx's followers see as poor and oppressed don't do what is good for them, there is frustration. I agree most working class people, and also people from ethnic minorities are socially conservative, many quite like the Monarchy and religion and patriotism, which middle class intellectuals roundly reject. And it's not they that suffer when things like drugs are decriminalised or laws around sex and trans people are liberalised, or the police are 'defunded' it's the poor, to a huge degree.

risefromyourgrave · 28/06/2024 08:01

Link to an interview that he did after telling Kemi to shut up.

https://twitter.com/Terf_Rocks/status/1806110591343329539

For those who aren’t on X/Twitter there is a transcript:

David Tennant - Wishes Kemi B would ‘shut up’
Theeyeballsinthesky · 28/06/2024 08:06

Fuck me he really is a massive cunt isn’t he

It’s quite disturbing how he’s so 1000 % on board with his child’s “trans” status. God forbid said child ever decided he was just like all the other children after all.

ActivePeony · 28/06/2024 08:31

Theeyeballsinthesky · 28/06/2024 08:06

Fuck me he really is a massive cunt isn’t he

It’s quite disturbing how he’s so 1000 % on board with his child’s “trans” status. God forbid said child ever decided he was just like all the other children after all.

Yes to all of this. That poor kid is now locked in to this trans status because his stupid father has staked his reputation as 'one of the good guys' on it.

PronounssheRa · 28/06/2024 08:32

A tiny bunch of whinging fuckers = women who want their rights protected in law and think child safeguarding is important

He really is fucking awful.

EasternStandard · 28/06/2024 08:34

PronounssheRa · 28/06/2024 08:32

A tiny bunch of whinging fuckers = women who want their rights protected in law and think child safeguarding is important

He really is fucking awful.

JFC these men

EdithStourton · 28/06/2024 08:37

'little winging fuckers'?
Projection?

Edited to add, I would not normally be so rude about an individual, but if that's what he thinks of us, and is prepared to go on the record saying about a sizeable group of intelligent women making a coherent argument.... Yeah, he can fuck off. He's not up for a civilised debate.

GiveMeSpanakopita · 28/06/2024 08:42

risefromyourgrave · 28/06/2024 08:01

Link to an interview that he did after telling Kemi to shut up.

https://twitter.com/Terf_Rocks/status/1806110591343329539

For those who aren’t on X/Twitter there is a transcript:

When he said 'they'll all go away soon', I read that as an ageist dog whistle. The idea, expressed by other TRAs, that terfs are all bitter meddling prudish old women and we'll all die soon so no need to worry about us.

It's similar to the way progressives used to say that all Brexit and Tory voters are bitter old people and would die soon, after which the global socialist utopia would be guaranteed.

Sadly for DT, it seems he hasn't read the multiple studies showing that Gen A are the terfiest generation yet (same as progressives tend to avoid reading the studies showing the upsurge of right and centre right political sensibilities in Gen A).

But then, I sense that reading evidenced studies has never quite been DT's strong suit.