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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Emma Barnett and Gillian Keegan.

311 replies

heldinadream · 16/05/2024 08:46

Today prog R4 now - Emma holding GK to account!
16/05/24 8.45 been going on about 10 minutes really worth listening to!

OP posts:
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11
24Jules · 18/05/2024 13:20

I may have missed it.

Has there been any official Labour complaining/criticism, of what Keegan said to Barnett, regarding trans women are women, if fully surgically reassigned/altered?

duc748 · 18/05/2024 13:23

I imagine Labour will do their usual thing and say as little as possible.

maltravers · 18/05/2024 14:17

EasternStandard · 18/05/2024 13:17

A vote on who can access women’s spaces sounds a good idea to me

I don’t see why men should be allowed to access women’s spaces because they vote to do so. Don’t people care about women’s safety? Single sex spaces are not there as an historical anomaly. They are to protect women from male/male bodied people predating on them. They are there to allow women to take part in public life.

redsplodge · 18/05/2024 14:24

"Nobody sensible now doubts that gay is biologically based, and not a choice or an ideology. That may yet be proven to be the case for trans people too. Or it may not."

A biological basis for being trans would be......a biological basis for being trans. It's not proof that a transwoman is biologically female. It's a complete red herring.

"2008 Gay brains structured like those of the opposite sex" "2017 Biochemical evidence to support this effect was confirmed"

And this is an oversimplification of the studies. There are similarities in some areas, yes. Other areas of the brain are still to be studied, the impact of those differences is not well understood yet and brain plasticity is a complication given that brain scans of healthy newborns is not routine.

ILikeDungs · 18/05/2024 14:42

Can someone point me to reliable proven numbers of women being attacked by trans men or women, in a woman's safe space? How many offences? How many proven? How many convicted?

Where can I find those numbers?

Emma Barnett and Gillian Keegan.
Twylitette · 18/05/2024 15:09

There's some high profile cases of women being assaulted in raped by transwomen in women's prisons which can be easily googled. Not sure what numbers would need to be to justify action. 1 would do it for me 🤷‍♀️

24Jules · 18/05/2024 15:33

EasternStandard
Such a vote wouldn't be only men. And anyway, I think many men would vote no. Is such a vote likely though?

ILikeDungs.
Nothing sensible to add then?

redsplodge.
Don't you accept that being gay is not an ideology or a choice then? Really? If not, on what grounds?

Not a red herring at all. If a component or an area of the brain were identified, that only appears in the brains of trans people, it would shoot the "ideology" theory down in flames.

No the brain is not well understood. Nothing like well understood. Which is precisely why, to rule out transgender as having a biological basis, is more than a little shortsighted. Not finding evidence, does not mean that no evidence exists. The main evidence so far, is the persistent existence of trans people for many thousands of years. Nobody can deny that they exist. Just as many attempts were made to erradicate/supress homosexuality which failed, so too trans people stubbornly don't disappear with time or resistance to them. They persist still in all cultures. There is a reason for that, even if nobody knows what that reason is yet. You don't and I don't. As regards a trans woman being female, all of these are just words. Yes, as far as our current definitions go, we use the word female to describe a certain set of conditions. But our definitions may change to inckude or exclude, depending on discoveries, -- and events.

So it may matter not. If Keegan is not alone, and she isn't, in accepting that a fully transitioned trans woman is a woman, and is considered woman enough to be free to access women's spaces, then the delineation between sex and gender will be rendered less important/blurred. That will be an affront to some, others won't mind.

Some will predict great harm. Others will disagree. And then we'll all have to wait to see if any great harm follows.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 18/05/2024 15:35

Nothing sensible to add then?

On the contrary, I think @ILikeDungs post is pretty useful.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 18/05/2024 15:39

This is also not comparing like with like. A man being turned on by the idea of himself as woman (a fantasy, usually based on sexist stereotypes, ideas of forced feminisation, sissy porn etc.) is not in any way the same as a woman being turned on by her actual real female body (having sexy thoughts while having actual female body about that actual female body).

This. It's a completely ridiculous, typically gaslighty TRA talking point.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 18/05/2024 15:42

There's some high profile cases of women being assaulted in raped by transwomen in women's prisons which can be easily googled. Not sure what numbers would need to be to justify action. 1 would do it for me

Let me take a guess, it will be n+1 here.

24Jules · 18/05/2024 15:46

Twylitette · Today 15:09

But one case wouldn't do it for those who actually have to make laws, -- fortunately.

And of those cases, how many are actually really trans, and not merely sexually violent criminal men, using a mad freedom to game the system? Surely that's been the big failing in Scotland of self certification without a proper process. And why it isn't likely that Labour or anybody else will follow it

I would like to see the numbers stat's for atacks by genuine trans women, who have gone through a proper length transition. No doubt there must be some, but how many?

1 case? I linked to 2 cases above. 1 woman raped 2 underage boys. Should that one case exclude all women from teaching young boys? Of course not.

Should all young girls fear young women, lest they pretend to be men? Of course not.

If there is substantial evidence that proves trans women are a threat to all women, I'm suprised it hasn't been in the main news.

24Jules · 18/05/2024 15:49

Bring on the general election. It's going to be interesting to seeif any of this subject features at all.

Twylitette · 18/05/2024 15:52

How can we tell the difference between genuine transwomen and blokes in wigs please?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 18/05/2024 15:53

I think it's going to feature in the run up. During the Labour leadership election a few years ago it was asked about in most BBC interviews.

24Jules · 18/05/2024 15:54

Well, not all trans women wear wigs for starters. 😅😅

24Jules · 18/05/2024 15:56

Ereshkigalangcleg

That's something to look forward to then . Lol.

24Jules · 18/05/2024 16:00

Twylitette.
Just for you. Some of these drag queens are wearing wigs too.

Emma Barnett and Gillian Keegan.
RainWithSunnySpells · 18/05/2024 16:04

Sex is defined by the type of gametes that your body produces, will produce or has produced (or should do for those with DSDs) it is not defined by how you identify or what a brain scan says.

No-one has said that women do not commit crimes. We know that women prisioners exist and it is exactly for this reason that Prisons is one of the areas where sex does matter. No man (no matter how he identifies) should be placed in a womens' prison.

Figures about prisioners and their demographics are easy to find as official figures are published.

I think that Dungs is spot on. We are definitely witnessing some sealioning here.

redsplodge · 18/05/2024 16:05

24Jules
You seem to fail to understand both the studies you refer to and my post. Or you're misrepresenting both.

I have not claimed that homosexuality is either an ideology or a choice, I have pointed out that the studies are not as simplistic as you claim. Which, incidentally is what the authors state about their own reports.

And my point about a biological explanation for being trans being a red herring is that whether being trans is biological or ideological is not important to the debate about women's sex based rights as in neither case does it make a biologically male person a woman.

Twylitette · 18/05/2024 16:08

24Jules · 18/05/2024 16:00

Twylitette.
Just for you. Some of these drag queens are wearing wigs too.

Ok, so just avoid anyone who looks like this and i wont be raped. Got it.

24Jules · 18/05/2024 16:17

I haven't misunderstood anything. And nor did I say you claimed being gay was a choice. I asked. You've answered.

As for so called sealioning? , I'd never heard of that before either. Every day is an education.

Is asking questions and being ignorant in some things, some kind of crime now then? Is it against the rules here?

Is only one opinion allowed here? Is no dissent permitted? Is it not permissible to have a different opinion to others, or disagree?

24Jules · 18/05/2024 16:19

Twylitette.
Ok, so just avoid anyone who looks like this and i wont be raped. Got it.

That's the trouble with assumptions based merely on appearances. Those are all women.

24Jules · 18/05/2024 16:29

And my point about a biological explanation for being trans being a red herring is that whether being trans is biological or ideological is not important to the debate about women's sex based rights as in neither case does it make a biologically male person a woman.

And my point is that becomes irrelvant, if Keegan's opinion prevails, as seems likely it will with Labour being elected. And then we'll all wait to see if great harm follows.

EasternStandard · 18/05/2024 16:33

maltravers · 18/05/2024 14:17

I don’t see why men should be allowed to access women’s spaces because they vote to do so. Don’t people care about women’s safety? Single sex spaces are not there as an historical anomaly. They are to protect women from male/male bodied people predating on them. They are there to allow women to take part in public life.

It’s such a minority of men though I don’t think they’d get access

I get what you’re saying just do the right thing for safety and privacy reasons

Right now we don’t even get a say.

illinivich · 18/05/2024 16:50

There seems to be two unrelated issues being confused here - is trans a real condition that can be defined, and are sex segregated spaces needed, wanted and legal?

The existence of trans doesnt make sex suddenly disappear, make men female, or remove the reason why sex segregated spaces are needed and wanted.

Starmer is quite clear on this issue too - he speaks of supporting trans rights, AND the need for single sex spaces and services. Has he ever indicated that he intends to remove that level of safeguarding?

What the discussion is on this forum is not that Starmer is bonkers enough to remove much needed safeguarding, but if the law makes that safeguarding harder to maintain. And does he understand that.