Male friend on FB (a doctor no less), telling me that trans women are real women.

[Blondiebeachbabe]

I shared a meme on FB, about not supporting trans women in female sports.

A male friend of mine, who is a GP, commented that trans women are real women 🙄 I replied that trans women are men, and that my gripe was men in women’s sports, and men (rapists like Karen White), being housed in female prisons.

He then said that he knew lots of trans men, who just wanted to live a peaceful life, and I’m thinking well yes, because they are actually biologically female!

He then went on to quote all manner of statistics about violence from men against trans women and how trans women are at more risk of violence than cis women (I hate that term). and how cis women are more likely to be attacked by cis men than trans women.

It’s been annoying me all day. Here is another male telling me what to think, but also, whether the violence comes from normal men against trans women (who are men), or trans women against real women, this is essentially a male violence problem.

Because, we as women, aren’t the perpetrators in any of this. So men, stay in your own lane and sort out all your shit. You don’t get to throw the men you don’t like into our lane (bathrooms and prisons), and make us your collateral damage.

If a fox said that it felt like it was a chicken, you wouldn’t let it sleep in the chicken coup, just in case it was lying.

I may not have articulated this in the best way!

On something like this, I wouldn't give a shit. It's to do with my basic rights as a woman. Either he's on board with that, or he's prioritising men who say they're women, trying to appease them.

If he didn't like what I had to sat, then he could sod off and he wouldn't be welcome in my house any more. Women are far too accommodating to male twats like this. He's a GP for fuck's sake!!

As if you need to personally KNOW something to feel affected by it or show an interest in it, how fucking insulting.
I've never been raped, but that doesn't stop me caring about women who have been raped.
I've never had cancer but that doesn't stop me from caring about people who have cancer.
I don't know any transwomen in real life, but that doesn't stop me from being horrified by the whole ideology and disagreeing with women's rights being eradicated systemically in sport, healthcare etc.

Funnily enough, women are permitted to have actual opinions on things, it may come as a shock to you but our little pink brains can care about several things at once.

Why do we "feel so strongly about this"?
What a fucking joke.

Maybe because we have the insight to see where the ultimate end of this ideology will take us. You clearly cannot.

I shared a meme on FB, about not supporting trans women in female sports.

A male friend of mine, who is a GP, commented that trans women are real women 🙄

So basically he dared to disagree with you?

Welcome to life.

What do you mean by receipts?

It is written by quite a few people across different threads

He has views that cannot be supported by argument. Like a cult member. Surprising and disappointing for a doctor.

Proof.

Absolutely nobody is suggesting that we shouldn't be kind to trans people.

But being kind shouldn't mean that what they want is prioritised over what others need. Being kind shouldn't mean that they are given full and free access to single sex spaces for members of the opposite sex, meaning that some members of the opposite sex will then be unable to use those spaces.

I'm far from convinced it's even kind to pretend that we believe a trans woman is a woman or a trans man is a man. It sets people up for disappointment as soon as they leave their safe little echo chamber where everyone respects their pronouns and repeats the mantras, and go out into the real world.

You might find the phrase "man in a dress" unkind. But it's not really the "dress" part which is under dispute here, is it? A trans woman in a dress would presumably not be offended by someone pointing out that they are wearing a dress. It's the "man" part which some people believe is unkind.

And therein lies the problem.

For those of us who believe that the word "man" means "male person" (not a slur, not an insult, just simple, factual language), being told that we can't say a trans woman is a man because it is "unkind" is a real problem. Because we are being told that we cannot talk about reality because it is "unkind". But sometimes we really need to talk about reality.

If a blanket ban is not the way, how do you see this working? How do you ban some male people who say they identify as women from women's spaces, whilst allowing other male people who say they identify as women into them?

@fungipie

Does realise that women don't have penises really, surely 🤔

Men that think they are women have them and need to be referred to as men

Oh dear.

Is that really the best you can do?

Came back this morning to see if @fungipie had a response to my question regarding their assertion that no transwoman has a penis. Nada.

Well disappointing is a matter of opinion, but surprising? You can’t really be surprised that there are doctors who hold these views - otherwise gender reassignment surgery wouldn’t exist.

A surgeon doesn't have to be a gender identity believer to do "gender reassignment" surgery. She or he just has to be unethical or motivated by money.

that is why suicide rates are higher than in other groups

Just to clarify this point. While the population of trans people do have a higher rate of suicide than the general population, when directly compared with ‘other groups’ with the same mental health and trauma comorbities, trans people do NOT have higher rates of suicide. I think it is really important to not spread misinformation.

And as a side note, always, always check the methodology of anything published by the Trevor Project. I have found their ‘studies’ akin to poorly constructed questionnaires and their analysis on their results to be aimed at getting the most sensationalised headlines rather than actually reading the data and understanding the limitations. If anyone posts studies, I suggest rather than googling and pasting in a hurry, you read what you are about to post.

And of course, as you should with every study, read with an analytical mind, not from a position of immediate acceptance or emotional susceptibility. As I say, the Trevor Project has published some dangerous headline capturing articles that must surely make trans people feel very much worse because of the way the information is so biased and doesn’t stand up to the blanket statements made.

Here is the Finnish study that puts it all into perspective.

https://mentalhealth.bmj.com/content/27/1/e300940

”All-cause and suicide mortalities among adolescents and young adults who contacted specialised gender identity services in Finland in 1996–2019: a register study “

Sami-Matti Ruuska, Katinka Tuisku et al

February 17, 2024.

Findings Of the 55 deaths in the study population, 20 (36%) were suicides. In bivariate analyses, all-cause mortality did not statistically significantly differ between gender-referred adolescents and controls (0.5% vs 0.3%); however, the proportion of suicides was higher in the gender-referred group (0.3% vs 0.1%). The all-cause mortality rate among gender-referred adolescents (controls) was 0.81 per 1000 person-years (0.40 per 1000 person-years), and the suicide mortality rate was 0.51 per 1000 person-years (0.12 per 1000 person-years). However, when specialist-level psychiatric treatment was controlled for, neither all-cause nor suicide mortality differed between the two groups: HR for all-cause mortality among gender-referred adolescents was 1.0 (95% CI 0.5 to 2.0) and for suicide mortality was 1.8 (95% CI 0.6 to 4.8).

Conclusions Clinical gender dysphoria does not appear to be predictive of all-cause nor suicide mortality when psychiatric treatment history is accounted for.

Clinical implications It is of utmost importance to identify and appropriately treat mental disorders in adolescents experiencing gender dysphoria to prevent suicide.

-end-

This study has echoed what gender clinicians themselves have been saying over the years. That the people they see are not committing suicide at higher rates compared to groups of people with the same comorbities. I can dig up at least one or two if people want them.

There has been a dangerous instance also of groups and activists stating that if trans people don’t get the treatment they demand that suicide is the result. ‘Better to have a live son/daughter than a dead daughter/son’ has been repeated over and over. Families have stated they were told this in person by ‘support’ groups. However, the rate is similar or may be higher after treatment because the person finds out that the treatment that heavily invested groups made out would help has not helped and is irreversible and the person feels worse than before the medicalised treatment.

The suicide angle has been dangerously misused by support groups. And it is dangerous. Because it increases the fear in trans people, in their families and in society.

However, it is important to not use suicide rates to convince female people, or anyone, that they should allow actions that increases their own risk of harm and increase their own mental health issues to avoid someone’s suicide. Or to be kind. Or to make someone feel better. That is abhorrent when you think it through.

And this refers to slightly older research (2016 ish) but shows the issues with self reporting questionnaires -

fairplayforwomen.com/suicide/

And as Fair Play For Women say in the link above -

'This is our position. Every suicide is a terrible tragedy and we must be extremely careful in any message we send to young people on this subject. The Samaritans guidance states that we should avoid speculation about any one ‘trigger’ for suicide and that we need to exercise caution in repeating suicide statistics. We would like to see this advice followed more carefully in the case of young people struggling with gender identity issues.'

Some people do have a life, and other things to do, thanks.

I know several transwomen. 1 still has a penis, because he left it too late to change gender. Very gently, polite, respectful, a talented artist aged 76.

I have grand-daughters, and I do fear for them in so so many ways in todays's world. The above friends are NO threat to her whatsoever.

I do know, for a fact, that if any of my above friends went to a toilet for males only, they would be at massive risk of aggression, verbal and physical.

Will not reply to further posts.

Actually agree.

Such an important post.

Channel 4 allowed something to go out a few weeks ago with the "better a living son than a dead daughter" phrase. So irresponsible. Should have been edited out.

I've seen first hand professionals pass the buck on children who declare a trans identity, whether through fear or through genuine belief that the previous repression of their "true self" has been the cause of all the issues.

I cannot understand why people who dub themselves "allies" want trans people to believe they're at extra risk of suicide. I cannot understand why they want professionals to ignore red flags of potential child abuse in children who happen to say they are trans.

Kind it ain't.

Will not reply to further posts.

That's your choice. But the conversation (here and elsewhere) will continue without you. No debate died a while ago. Rational thought is returning at long last.

I know many gentle, polite, respectful men. Still don't want them using women's spaces/bathrooms for whatever reason.

Out of interest, why would your transwomen pals be at risk of such aggression in a male toilet?

Ok. We understand. The dissonance in having to separate your nice friends from the way that safeguarding actually works and needs to work is huge.

The fact that you seem to be ill informed, yet cannot admit that you lack the depth of information to argue without resorting to the tropish emotionally manipulative arguments that we have been seeing on this thread has been noticed. Rather than the constant dismissal that you have engaged in though, I do recommend that you read original source with strong methodology and evidence. Stop relying on your ‘my nice friends’ anecdotes. Using those to shame female people to allow male people access to their single sex spaces. It is harmful.

Yes. We know. Yet you have no argument as to how that declaration of woman with castration is different from without castration.

Hence the emotionally laden posts.

Well so you don't fear for your grandadughter what about mine? What about other peoples granddaughters? Just because you think your friends won't hurt anyone, that doesn't mean I want any of them near me or my daughter, granddaughter or anyone elses, you have an incredibly selfish and narrow view point!

Fungipie, did you just agree that those trans identified men who still have a penis are NOT transwomen and only the ones with bottom surgery are actually real transwomen?
Because what you just said is super transphobic according to the TRA, and you have just discounted upwards of 95% of all transwomen.

That's the whole point. EVERY MAN who says he is woman is one. EVERY SINGLE ONE. You can't pick and choose who to let into the club.

And that's why it's so dangerous.
Don't you understand that?