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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Male friend on FB (a doctor no less), telling me that trans women are real women.

528 replies

Blondiebeachbabe · 29/04/2024 21:48

I shared a meme on FB, about not supporting trans women in female sports.

A male friend of mine, who is a GP, commented that trans women are real women 🙄 I replied that trans women are men, and that my gripe was men in women’s sports, and men (rapists like Karen White), being housed in female prisons.

He then said that he knew lots of trans men, who just wanted to live a peaceful life, and I’m thinking well yes, because they are actually biologically female!

He then went on to quote all manner of statistics about violence from men against trans women and how trans women are at more risk of violence than cis women (I hate that term). and how cis women are more likely to be attacked by cis men than trans women.

It’s been annoying me all day. Here is another male telling me what to think, but also, whether the violence comes from normal men against trans women (who are men), or trans women against real women, this is essentially a male violence problem.

Because, we as women, aren’t the perpetrators in any of this. So men, stay in your own lane and sort out all your shit. You don’t get to throw the men you don’t like into our lane (bathrooms and prisons), and make us your collateral damage.

If a fox said that it felt like it was a chicken, you wouldn’t let it sleep in the chicken coup, just in case it was lying.

I may not have articulated this in the best way!

OP posts:
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HootyMcBooby · 30/04/2024 22:18

CheeseSandwichRiskAssessment · 30/04/2024 22:16

So no receipts then.

Are you really surprised Cheese?

Kernackered · 30/04/2024 22:19

Notamum12345577 · 30/04/2024 22:07

That is great then, sounds like we are on the same page. I think women only spaces are important. It’s the people calling them ‘men in frocks’ and other stuff that imo isn’t kind.

I've rtft and I'm pretty sure you are the only person to say "men in frocks" and you've said it twice now

AngelinaFibres · 30/04/2024 22:21

fungipie · 29/04/2024 22:12

Because if she did, she would realise they are real people, who have chosent to turn away from violence linked to masculinity and no risk to anyone.

But they remain men. They will always,always be men. Turning away from masculinity doesn't make you a woman.

Helleofabore · 30/04/2024 22:22

Notamum12345577 · 30/04/2024 22:13

I have a lot of sympathy with people who want to ban them. I’m not sure a blanket ban is the best way, but some spaces definitely yes

And yet, male people in general have the same risk of committing sex and violent crimes. Do you think that some male people should be allowed into any female single sex space if they meet some case by case criteria? If no, why do you think this applies to male people with trans identities?

Please link us up to the evidence that we should consider that proves that male people at any stage of transition have a lower risk of committing sex crime than any other male person in the UK?

Datun · 30/04/2024 22:22

Notamum12345577

The Cass report, which took four years, found that a high percentage of children identifying as trans are autistic, gay, or have past sexual trauma. They are certainly no higher a suicide risk than any other people in those groups.

And there is a world of difference between confused children showing up to gender clinics, and middle-aged cross dressing men. (Take a look at autogynephilia, for an explanation of that.)

Women have been doxxed, threatened, fired, intimidated, hounded, arrested and hit for wanting to retain their own spaces.

And it was not the children showing up at gender clinics doing it.

Women not falling over themselves to be kind, in either their descriptions, or discourse over this, is, and this is a massive fricken understatement, completely bloody understandable.

Runningupthecurtains · 30/04/2024 22:23

Notamum12345577 · 30/04/2024 22:12

Of course trans people don’t deserve more kindness. They all deserve it

But there is conflict between kindly letting trans women 'be' women i.e. able to enter women's spaces, win women's awards and play women's sports and kindly letting a female rape victim have a female only therapy group or kindly letting a menstruating pre teen have a single sex school toilet, girl guide tent etc.
When these conflicts arise we have to be 'unkind' to one party or the other. If we don't choose to be 'unkind' to the girls/women rather than the trans women we are told we are awful bigoted witches and abused/threatened (which in itself isn't very kind).

Datun · 30/04/2024 22:29

Moonpie6 · 30/04/2024 22:10

Omg would they really put her in a cell with another woman???

Surely the prison (wherever that is) wouldn't put her in a cell with another female inmate.

I thought she had gone to a male prison?? I'm so out of the loop to be honest I don't really watch the news.

They put white, a terribly violent rapist in a woman's prison even after he warned them himself that he was a massive predator who couldn't help himself.

He intimidated the women in the shower, the headlines memorably talked about 'her penis poking out the top of her pyjamas.'

He was subsequently transferred For predatory behaviour.

The can be nothing more inhumane than allowing a violent rapist to have access to incarcerated women, because he bloody wants it.

theDudesmummy · 30/04/2024 22:34

@fungipie "no transwoman has a penis" just fucked off following contact with reality then? Quelle surprise. #nodebate still hanging in there i guess but I wouldn't say thriving.

Moonpie6 · 30/04/2024 22:39

Datun · 30/04/2024 22:29

They put white, a terribly violent rapist in a woman's prison even after he warned them himself that he was a massive predator who couldn't help himself.

He intimidated the women in the shower, the headlines memorably talked about 'her penis poking out the top of her pyjamas.'

He was subsequently transferred For predatory behaviour.

The can be nothing more inhumane than allowing a violent rapist to have access to incarcerated women, because he bloody wants it.

Thanks for responding.

That's absolutely disgusting.

theDudesmummy · 30/04/2024 22:40

There are no circumstances on earth where someone should be referring to "her penis". @fungipie what is your response to that? Oh, let me guess, none whatsoever.

Helleofabore · 30/04/2024 22:42

Notamum12345577 · 30/04/2024 21:54

Lots of people to reply to, so I will do it here. Will look for stats if I get a chance while I am working.
Saying a lot of male to female trans people are dangerous is no different to a few decades ago when people said most gay men were a danger to male children.
Don’t want people to think I am some sort of trans rights activist. My opinions do not align with what LGBTQI etc groups such as stonewall think. I think mermaids is a dangerous group. I have a lot of sympathy with what JKR and others say about single sex spaces.
However, I do know that most trans people (male and female, and in the under 18 group apparently female to male is now the biggest percentage which I was surprised about) just want to live in peace. It is terms like ‘a man in a frock’ that I think are unkind. It isn’t like trans people just wake up one day and think ‘I might become a woman / man now’. Whatever I or others think about them, the mental pain of feeling like they are in the wrong body is real. That’s why the suicide rates are higher than in other groups.
So whatever I think personally, I will still be kind towards the trans people who just want to live happy and in peace.

gay men were a danger to children

I think that you are misunderstanding where discrimination is legitimate and not legitimate though. Plus understanding equality.

People who are same sex attracted (or to both sexes) were subject to illegitimate discrimination when some people declared they should not access toilets of their sex or have the same access to children that those people attracted to opposite sex had.

However, for clarity. these were male people accessing male toilets if they were a homosexual male. They were not asking for special treatment under any safeguarding principles or indeed, in life. They were asking, and rightfully so, for EQUAL treatment and equal protection.

Male people demanding access to female single sex spaces are demanding ADDITIONAL accommodations be made because of their gender identity. This is not a demand for equality.

It was always wrong to deny a person who was homosexual or bisexual access to a facility that matched their sex when that discrimination was based on their sexual orientation.

For instance, one group of male people have no extra rights over other male people. They cannot expect their demand to be obliged that they have privacy involving being completely separated from other male people in a facility designated as single sex for male people because they don't want to be there with male people of a different sexual orientation. Again, singling out same sex or both sex attracted people to be excluded, would be illegitimate discrimination.

This is, of course, not the same as the case for excluding all male bodies from female single sex spaces, except for male children under a particular age who would require care from a female person.

It is NOT wrong to exclude male people from a female single sex space because they are male.

There is a necessary form of discrimination that is used for calculating safeguarding risks which is based on sexed bodies. The only 'negative' impact it has is to exclude one sex from a space designated as single sex for safety purposes. This discrimination has been the basis of sex segregated spaces since those spaces became available to public life.

Male bodies are excluded from female single sex spaces also on the grounds of privacy and dignity. Not just safety.

Homosexual male people were wrongfully discriminated regarding access to toilets and changing rooms against based on no statistical evidence at all, just prejudice. This has, rightfully, been prevented with law. Because it was statistically inaccurate and wrong.

The fact remains that the comparator should start with 'does one group of male people have a lower risk profile compared to ALL other male people in the UK' ?

The answer for gay male people is 'no' and it was likely always no. The risk for gay male people can be said to be the SAME as for all other male people in the UK. Besides, they were not seeking unequal treatment.

If you are arguing that any male person over about 8 should be included in any single sex female space, you should need to provide evidence that the group of male people you are advocating for have not just a lower risk of committing sex crime than all other male people in the UK. You also need to provide evidence that they commit sex crime at the same or lower rate than all female people in the UK.

It is NOT wrong to exclude male people from a female single sex space because they are male. The protected characteristic is SEX not GENDER in this instance.

Dineasair · 30/04/2024 22:47

JellySaurus · 29/04/2024 23:13

*whether the violence comes from normal men against trans women (who are men), or trans women against real women, this is essentially a male violence problem.

Because, we as women, aren’t the perpetrators in any of this. So men, stay in your own lane and sort out all your shit. You don’t get to throw the men you don’t like into our lane (bathrooms and prisons), and make us your collateral damage.

If a fox said that it felt like it was a chicken, you wouldn’t let it sleep in the chicken coup, just in case it was lying.*

Seems to me you've articulated it very clearly, and can send him exactly this.

Could it possibly be that he thinks transmen are males who identify as women, and transwmen females who identify as men? It is a common misapprehension by people who are using the English language grammatically (rather than ideologically).

👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

Dineasair · 30/04/2024 22:50

Helleofabore · 30/04/2024 22:42

gay men were a danger to children

I think that you are misunderstanding where discrimination is legitimate and not legitimate though. Plus understanding equality.

People who are same sex attracted (or to both sexes) were subject to illegitimate discrimination when some people declared they should not access toilets of their sex or have the same access to children that those people attracted to opposite sex had.

However, for clarity. these were male people accessing male toilets if they were a homosexual male. They were not asking for special treatment under any safeguarding principles or indeed, in life. They were asking, and rightfully so, for EQUAL treatment and equal protection.

Male people demanding access to female single sex spaces are demanding ADDITIONAL accommodations be made because of their gender identity. This is not a demand for equality.

It was always wrong to deny a person who was homosexual or bisexual access to a facility that matched their sex when that discrimination was based on their sexual orientation.

For instance, one group of male people have no extra rights over other male people. They cannot expect their demand to be obliged that they have privacy involving being completely separated from other male people in a facility designated as single sex for male people because they don't want to be there with male people of a different sexual orientation. Again, singling out same sex or both sex attracted people to be excluded, would be illegitimate discrimination.

This is, of course, not the same as the case for excluding all male bodies from female single sex spaces, except for male children under a particular age who would require care from a female person.

It is NOT wrong to exclude male people from a female single sex space because they are male.

There is a necessary form of discrimination that is used for calculating safeguarding risks which is based on sexed bodies. The only 'negative' impact it has is to exclude one sex from a space designated as single sex for safety purposes. This discrimination has been the basis of sex segregated spaces since those spaces became available to public life.

Male bodies are excluded from female single sex spaces also on the grounds of privacy and dignity. Not just safety.

Homosexual male people were wrongfully discriminated regarding access to toilets and changing rooms against based on no statistical evidence at all, just prejudice. This has, rightfully, been prevented with law. Because it was statistically inaccurate and wrong.

The fact remains that the comparator should start with 'does one group of male people have a lower risk profile compared to ALL other male people in the UK' ?

The answer for gay male people is 'no' and it was likely always no. The risk for gay male people can be said to be the SAME as for all other male people in the UK. Besides, they were not seeking unequal treatment.

If you are arguing that any male person over about 8 should be included in any single sex female space, you should need to provide evidence that the group of male people you are advocating for have not just a lower risk of committing sex crime than all other male people in the UK. You also need to provide evidence that they commit sex crime at the same or lower rate than all female people in the UK.

It is NOT wrong to exclude male people from a female single sex space because they are male. The protected characteristic is SEX not GENDER in this instance.

Well said 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

Italianita · 30/04/2024 22:53

This reply has been deleted

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theDudesmummy · 30/04/2024 22:56

Maybe it's past bedtime but the TRAs (aka MRAs) have gone very quiet. Fungi sloped off and that was disappointing. I never got an answer to my question. So far so normal for these people of course...immediate dissolution on contact with logic/reality...

theDudesmummy · 30/04/2024 22:57

Tour de force @Helleofabore

Dineasair · 30/04/2024 22:57

ILikeDungs · 30/04/2024 19:20

Notamum12345577 Well you probably can’t, but it is only a tiny tiny majority that would be a predator

How about you go willingly into a room with twenty snakes. Most of them are non-venomous

Love this

Helleofabore · 30/04/2024 22:58

Oops. Understanding equality should be misunderstanding equality.

GeorgeOrwellsTurningGrave · 30/04/2024 23:02

Hats off to all the patient posters kindly schooling the MRAs in reality.

Italianita · 30/04/2024 23:04

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ for breaking our Talk Guidelines.

theDudesmummy · 30/04/2024 23:07

Maybe there will be time and space another day to explore the idea that transwomen do not have penises, as espoused by an apparent trans ally. For another day.. goodnight...

DuesToTheDirt · 30/04/2024 23:17

Moonpie6 · 30/04/2024 22:10

Omg would they really put her in a cell with another woman???

Surely the prison (wherever that is) wouldn't put her in a cell with another female inmate.

I thought she had gone to a male prison?? I'm so out of the loop to be honest I don't really watch the news.

"He", Moonpie, "he". There's really no need, and no logic, to call this person "she".

Italianita · 30/04/2024 23:19

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ for breaking our Talk Guidelines.

Anele22 · 30/04/2024 23:25

fungipie · 29/04/2024 22:05

why do you feel so strongly about this? Do you know any transwomen?

Do you need to, to have an opinion?