Male friend on FB (a doctor no less), telling me that trans women are real women.

[Blondiebeachbabe]

I shared a meme on FB, about not supporting trans women in female sports.

A male friend of mine, who is a GP, commented that trans women are real women 🙄 I replied that trans women are men, and that my gripe was men in women’s sports, and men (rapists like Karen White), being housed in female prisons.

He then said that he knew lots of trans men, who just wanted to live a peaceful life, and I’m thinking well yes, because they are actually biologically female!

He then went on to quote all manner of statistics about violence from men against trans women and how trans women are at more risk of violence than cis women (I hate that term). and how cis women are more likely to be attacked by cis men than trans women.

It’s been annoying me all day. Here is another male telling me what to think, but also, whether the violence comes from normal men against trans women (who are men), or trans women against real women, this is essentially a male violence problem.

Because, we as women, aren’t the perpetrators in any of this. So men, stay in your own lane and sort out all your shit. You don’t get to throw the men you don’t like into our lane (bathrooms and prisons), and make us your collateral damage.

If a fox said that it felt like it was a chicken, you wouldn’t let it sleep in the chicken coup, just in case it was lying.

I may not have articulated this in the best way!

" reason they did is because they feel mentally and emotionally like women."

And what does that MEAN?
And how do they KNOW, given that they are NOT women and can never BE women, so therefore have nothing to compare it to?

How do you account for de-transitioners then? Men who DID feel that way, then DID'NT feel that way? Were they women for a bit, but then became male again?
At what point did the magic happen?

Could you answer @theDudesmummy question @fungipie - I'd be interested in your response

So still not a shred of evidence then

And there is not a single case in the UK of a TW being attacked in a men’s toilets. There are cases though of women being attacked by TW in women’s toilets

It’s fascinating how much some people can’t get their heads around the idea that men just can’t have everything they want and that women are allowed to say no to them

women are not support humans for confused men

So let's get it straight then.

Women need to accept males in their spaces, because those males might feel threatened or be attacked by other men, so women need to budge up and make room for them, and act as a defence shield from other men, in case they are afraid.

But women who ALSO feel that way and don't want a man in their spaces because they feel threatened or afraid or uncomfortable?
Well, they can all just fuck off. Their feelings are not valid.

Centre the male at all costs?

Got it.

@fungipie If men have a problem with other men in their toilets that is not for us to deal with, it is for them. However, if you wish to get involved (I think you are a woman, right?) then your activism should be directed towards male behaviour and educating men to treat men who choose to cross dress civilly. Apart from my part in this education as the mother of a son, this is not my problem.

Please provide the statistics or studies that show that in the UK, male people with a trans identity are at greater risk of verbal, mental and even physical violence if they attend men only toilets and changing rooms than any other vulnerable male in the UK?

Because, if those male people who are also very vulnerable to receiving verbal, mental and even physical violence but do not have a trans identity are at such risk, why are they not allowed to use the female toilets and changing rooms?

And if any male people are at such risk in the UK in male toilets and changing rooms, where the fuck is the groups campaigning and organising the government to also campaign extensively to make sure that male toilets and changing rooms are safe to use for every single male person in the UK?

Plus, for over a decade I believe, feminist groups have been proposing that those male people should have a third space that is open to all people to accommodate their needs. And that was rejected. Very loudly. Did you miss it?

Please provide statistics or studies for the UK, or admit that you are now using your friends anecdotes or their unevidenced reasons (which ever) to tell women that they should STFU and just be kind.

But WHICH women do they feel like?
Do all women have this elusive mental and emotional feeling? Is there a feeling that is so universal that I have it, alongside Maggie Thatcher, mother Theresa, Kylie Minogue, Queen Elizabeth (1 and 2), Katie Price???? We all share a womanly feeling somehow? Or is it just that the ONLY thing we have in common is that we all have female genitalia? Coz I can't think of any other common trait between us all that would mark a man as actually a woman even if he had this magical trait.

I don't feel mentally and emotionally like a woman, I feel mentally and emotionally like me, an individual person who can (unless there is reincarnation I suppose) never know what it is like to be anyone else. Same as for anyone else.

Yes, it's a very good point about third spaces.

Why do they need access to female spaces? What's wrong with unisex or third gender neutral spaces? Because these have been suggested time and again and are apparently not good enough.
If it's all about "being safe" from other men, then why is this option not desirable?

Because it's NOT about being safe from other men, that's why.

That's interesting that you came from a stance that might be understood as "bigotted" by trans activists and then educated yourself to a different stance?

You're entitled to your opinion of course. But please don't assume that everyone is following a similar trajectory to you.

I have known trans people and known about transexualism for two decades. I came from a stance of understanding and deep empathy towards transexuals, which gave way to horror when I further "educated myself" and found out about modern mainstream trans rights activism aka MRA movement. The transexuals I knew are not represented by this at all.

You are very welcome to try and feel safe around transwomen. But you haven't the right to consent on behalf of other women who need single sex provision.

The data tells us males commit over 90% of violent and sexual crimes. Transwomen are males with a belief; just like Christian males, Muslim males, males who think Star Wars is the best thing ever. Safeguarding deals with the statistics. No need for any individual male to take it personally.

Sorry, only back now, so somebody else may have already replied to you. But here goes anyway. Most women on this board would agree that we don't identify as women, we simply are. We were born that way, irrespective of whether we are happy or angry about it or whether we feel particularly feminine. Many of us don't. We're also gender critical, in other words we oppose the gender roles and stereotypes that the patriarchy has imposed on us based on the reality of our sexed bodies.

"Cis" (and "trans", obviously) in contrast is an idea that's based solely on what's in people's heads. Its proponents usually define as people who "identify" with the "gender identity" that corresponds to their biological sex (or as the true faith has it, their "sex assigned at birth.") So if you're born a female and your inner feelings are closer to the "Barbie" than to the "GI Joe" end of the infamous spectrum proposed by Mermaids, that makes you "cis": in other words, it's you agreeing to describe yourself as a fluffy pink ladybrain. Many of us find that infuriating. And also incorrect, given how many women on this board are more or less gender non-conforming and would probably describe themselves as "non binary" if they believed in gender identity.

it's not about you, and not about you to decide how they feel. Not about me either. But I a can support them, best I can, and try and keep them safe from harrassment and danger, mental, emotional and physical. And they don't threaten me or make me feel threatened at all, even though I do not understand how they feel.

No. That is material reality.

If you wish to try to argue that someone can 'be' something that they are objectively not but can somehow imagine that they are, and in reality 'be' that thing that they wish to be, that is you failing at understanding what is material reality and what is wishful thinking or philosophical belief.

@fungipie all of which can be achieved without making women's single sex spaces accommodate these male people with these particular feelings.

"And they don't threaten me or make me feel threatened at all,

Would you still feel the same if you had to share a prison cell with a convicted rapist?

That's fine, but why do they need to be in women's spaces?

Why is what they want more important than the women who need these spaces to be single sex?

Well you do you and prioritise men over women

I’ll worry about women first

AFAIK no-one has ever told us what, if it is not your biology, makes someone a woman. No woman-specific emotion, personality trait, characteristic, behaviour, reaction, viewpoint, belief, preference, sexuality, aspiration, vice, virtue. There is nothing that all women share apart from their biology and I have not heard anyone ever saying that there is.

Good for you!

Now, for the rest of us that feel that we want safety and privacy and dignity away from all male people when we enter into female single sex spaces, we should have that right shouldn't we? I mean, you can go and use third spaces with those male people so it shouldn't be an issue.

Because it IS about me and other female people. Despite your continued attempt to dismiss our needs.

But using emotional manipulation as you have been doing all over this thread is actually really unkind to those female people who do need the spaces to remain single sex. Just because you don't want female single sex spaces to remain single sex is not relevant when there is enough female people who do want them to remain so.

I was. I changed it from 'poor people, we should pity them and allow them some leeway in their attempts to seem female' to 'actually, no. Female people matter too, and this disadvantages them. They need to find a different solution.'

Keep thinking.

@fungipie could you please address my question from 18.23 in which I ask what we should call people who are saying they want to be called "transwomen" but have a penis? Given that you say that "transwomen" do not have a penis.

hellofabore 'But using emotional manipulation as you have been doing all over this thread'

just incredible language, wow.

The whole wrong body/brain schtick makes zero sense.

Your body is your body. Your brain is your brain.

I'm really good at making ice-cream and I like chianti. Does that mean I have an Italian brain, tragically misplaced? Or does it mean that I like some things that are stereotypically Italian, but that can be enjoyed by anyone, because national stereotypes - like gender stereotypes - are generalisations, and do not apply to every individual equally?

Fungipie, I asked you if you'd met any female prisoners, or women who had been formerly incarcerated. Did you answer that question already?