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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
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12
Primroseoil · 25/04/2024 11:02

Brilliant! That's great that another one has seen the light! The tide well & truely is turning. The TRAs are going extra ballistic as of late 🤣

SabrinaThwaite · 25/04/2024 11:05

Nellieinthebarn · 24/04/2024 23:06

We will never know which is her true belief on this subject, call me a cynical old bitch, but I think its a case of 'Oh bugger, the plebs don't believe in gender, I'd better back track so the poor fools will vote for me again' But even with this complete lack of confidence in the honor of almost all of our elected representatives, this is still a step in the right direction. Speaking as a poor fool, that still wont vote Tory.

Keegan is not even popular in her own constituency. Voting to allow shit to be pumped into your local AONB rivers and coastal waters is never a good look.

https://www.sussexexpress.co.uk/news/people/chichester-mp-gillian-keegan-responds-following-latest-sewage-vote-4004812

Helleofabore · 25/04/2024 11:22

I think the TWAW mantra usage is going to be a fantastic study in the future. It will be studied from so many different aspects. What it meant to different people, how they came to believe it in any way and then how they acted upon it, what they allowed to happen while believing it and who they then influenced and the impacts it had on society, and then who did what and said what as it has fallen apart, all need to be recorded and exposed as the harmful group think it was.

I can’t wait for the post postmodern philosophy analysis.

EasternStandard · 25/04/2024 11:26

Helleofabore · 25/04/2024 11:22

I think the TWAW mantra usage is going to be a fantastic study in the future. It will be studied from so many different aspects. What it meant to different people, how they came to believe it in any way and then how they acted upon it, what they allowed to happen while believing it and who they then influenced and the impacts it had on society, and then who did what and said what as it has fallen apart, all need to be recorded and exposed as the harmful group think it was.

I can’t wait for the post postmodern philosophy analysis.

Same. There’s so much to analyse

Language, media, influence, medical, politics it’ll fill books, studies and articles and I’m looking forward to that

AllProperTeaIsTheft · 25/04/2024 11:37

We will never know which is her true belief on this subject, call me a cynical old bitch, but I think its a case of 'Oh bugger, the plebs don't believe in gender, I'd better back track so the poor fools will vote for me again'

I always think it's far more likely that most back-trackers never believed TWAW in the first place, and are probably quite relieved not to have to pretend any more (even if the process of admitting you got it wrong is a bit awkward). I just find it hard to believe that very many people truly believe TWAW. They just try really hard to believe it, and think it's what everyone should believe in order to #bekind.

miri1985 · 25/04/2024 12:01

While it takes significantly less courage to reverse position now that the Cass report is out, what Keegans done in acknowledging and correcting is still better than just ignoring what you've previously said and hoping it goes away.

There are plenty of politicans who have TWAW and been pro puberty blockers and are now just ignoring the whole thing and not admitting their previous position, just look at the Lib Dems, they released an initial statement on Cass and then deleted it and now theres just nothing on it on their website, maybe I missed it but I don't know of any Lib Dem politican whos even talked about Cass.

Cass has been a huge news story but certain people have just completely ignored it, like the "Rest is Politics" its biggest political podcast in the UK, this is a major news story and it hasn't mentioned Cass or the political fallout

Merrymouse · 25/04/2024 12:01

AllProperTeaIsTheft · 25/04/2024 11:37

We will never know which is her true belief on this subject, call me a cynical old bitch, but I think its a case of 'Oh bugger, the plebs don't believe in gender, I'd better back track so the poor fools will vote for me again'

I always think it's far more likely that most back-trackers never believed TWAW in the first place, and are probably quite relieved not to have to pretend any more (even if the process of admitting you got it wrong is a bit awkward). I just find it hard to believe that very many people truly believe TWAW. They just try really hard to believe it, and think it's what everyone should believe in order to #bekind.

I think they think it is a kind thing to say, but have avoided thinking through the policy and legal implications.

Almost a decade later they have become unavoidable.

Ofcourseshecan · 25/04/2024 12:06

Onionbelt · 24/04/2024 23:25

Yes it's frustrating that people were captured, but those who change their thinking need our support, they will be recieving enough backlash from the still- captured. Lets welcome people into the GC fold. I believe we need to make them welcome.

I agree. They may be cowards and only changing their public statements to try to get re-elected. But this means they now know what the public will tolerate. And if this makes them prioritise children (and women) over male sex fetishists, that’s all I want.

quizzys · 25/04/2024 12:06

Great to see the pendulum swinging backwards at last.

I don't watch TV or read much print media TBH (many of them went with TWAW anyway), so I wondered if there is much fightback from TRAs out there? It can't be that vicious or we would all have heard about it somehow. Unless they are holed up in a back room plotting their revenge....

miri1985 · 25/04/2024 12:12

quizzys · 25/04/2024 12:06

Great to see the pendulum swinging backwards at last.

I don't watch TV or read much print media TBH (many of them went with TWAW anyway), so I wondered if there is much fightback from TRAs out there? It can't be that vicious or we would all have heard about it somehow. Unless they are holed up in a back room plotting their revenge....

I think there will be a fight back but I think it will all be very under the table a la Dentons playbook. Theres a reason it was all no debate because TWAW is a logical fallacy

DameMaud · 25/04/2024 12:22

RethinkingLife · 25/04/2024 10:05

Tides are not turning. People steeped in this ideology still control the NHS (see responses to Cass) and the Civil Service as well as NGOs. There's an update, but see what Sayers discovered about the influence of the unaccountable Global Disinformation Index that can destroy business models.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5051761-worth-watching-unherd-investigation-inside-the-disinformation-industry-kathleen-stock-specifically-mentioned?

Golden bridges to those who cross them. Trust no-one.

Kuran’s Private Truths, Public Lies offers a case study of East European communism and shocking, what seemed like overnight fall, of several communist regimes in 1989. Kuran argues that behind such falls and "unanticipated revolutions," preference falsification concealed the uncoalesced existence of massive hidden opposition to the regimes and their parties.

It's plausible that what is happening now is that public figures are voluntarily disclosing that they adopted the pre-digested briefings and mantras of others. With Cass, they've been exposed to the perspective and evidence of an eminent paediatrician. They may well have paused for thought and discovered that they've experienced preference falsification and their own thoughts are revealed to them. So people like Keegan discover that they, privately, have never believed TWAW or "some women have a penis."

The people who briefed people like Keegan are still in post. They are still influencing policies and using the levers of power to direct money and organise our major services in line with their own ideologies and preferences.

This is going to be a long engagement. Women don't have rights, we've had social niceties and fictions that can be removed from us on a whim or by covert lobbying. The same, devastatingly, is true of the moves to safeguard children.

Yes! All of this.

PondFloater · 25/04/2024 12:24

I think it also shows the shear lack of scientific understanding in this country - it's bloody obvious that YOU CAN'T CHANGE SEX even with multiple surgeries.

LoobiJee · 25/04/2024 12:24

Runor · 25/04/2024 09:29

So many politicians have now publicly changed their minds, and I’m glad they have (or at least they are saying they have). What I’d like to know, is why they held the view that TWAW in the first place? Understanding how this ideology took such a hold on public life in this country is the only way we can stop it happening again. It would also expose the lack of any supporting logic for those who are still clinging on.

Understanding how this ideology took such a hold on public life in this country is the only way we can stop it happening again.

Completely agree.

PondFloater · 25/04/2024 12:25

And also lack of spelling ability - sheer not shear.
Although they are a bunch of sheep.....

LoobiJee · 25/04/2024 12:30

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 25/04/2024 09:39

At the time of writing [that trans women are women], I didn’t have any direct experience of this topic and took advice on how best to respond, given the complexities surrounding individual cases. Having now spoken to experts and professionals, like many, my understanding has evolved.

I think this is a really odd statement to make.

You don't need to have direct experience of being a trans person, or direct experience of dealing with trans people, to understand whether a trans woman is a woman or not.

You don't even need to have direct experience of being a woman, although Gillian Keegan is a woman, and so does have that direct experience.

She's making it sound as though she previously only had a simplistic understanding of what a woman is and whether a trans woman is one, and now "having spoken to experts and professionals" her understanding has evolved and become more sophisticated.

But that's not true, is it? It's not that the answer to the question, "What is a woman?" is a complex one. On the contrary, the answer is really very simple, but it is one that Stonewall and their ilk don't like.

There is absolutely no need to speak to experts or professionals in order to understand what a woman is and why a trans woman is not one.

I think, in order to really shift the debate to where it needs to be, people who previously said "trans women are women" need to acknowledge that it was not true and they never actually believed it to be true, and reflect upon why they said it when they knew it wasn't true.

It would be far more honest to say, "I have previously said I believe that trans women are women. I apologise for saying this. It was not my honest belief. I repeated a statement I knew was untrue because I believed that it was the kind and respectful thing to do. I didn't have any direct experience of this topic and took advice on how best to respond, given the complexities surrounding trans people's identities. Having now spoken to many people, including experts and professionals, I now believe that this was not the right way to respond, and that in repeating a statement I knew to be untrue I unwittingly contributed to a culture where the honest discussion of biological sex has become taboo. We need to be able to talk about sex and gender using clear and unambiguous language to ensure that the rights and needs of all groups are fairly balanced. Saying that trans women are women, and by implication, that there is no valid reason to distinguish between these two groups, makes that discussion more difficult. Trans people's rights and identities are important and should be respected, but so are women's. It is wrong to prevent women from having the language they need to define and discuss themselves as a biological sex class."

I think, in order to really shift the debate to where it needs to be, people who previously said "trans women are women" need to acknowledge that it was not true and they never actually believed it to be true, and reflect upon why they said it when they knew it wasn't true.
^^
It would be far more honest to say, "I have previously said I believe that trans women are women. I apologise for saying this. It was not my honest belief. I repeated a statement I knew was untrue because I believed that it was the kind and respectful thing to do.

Agree, but with one addition:

I repeated a statement I knew was untrue because I believed that it was the politically expedient thing to do which could be marketed as the “kind and respectful” thing to do.

LoobiJee · 25/04/2024 12:38

miri1985 · 25/04/2024 12:01

While it takes significantly less courage to reverse position now that the Cass report is out, what Keegans done in acknowledging and correcting is still better than just ignoring what you've previously said and hoping it goes away.

There are plenty of politicans who have TWAW and been pro puberty blockers and are now just ignoring the whole thing and not admitting their previous position, just look at the Lib Dems, they released an initial statement on Cass and then deleted it and now theres just nothing on it on their website, maybe I missed it but I don't know of any Lib Dem politican whos even talked about Cass.

Cass has been a huge news story but certain people have just completely ignored it, like the "Rest is Politics" its biggest political podcast in the UK, this is a major news story and it hasn't mentioned Cass or the political fallout

what Keegans done in acknowledging and correcting is still better than just ignoring what you've previously said and hoping it goes away.
^^
There are plenty of politicans who have TWAW and been pro puberty blockers and are now just ignoring the whole thing and not admitting their previous position,

That’s a very fair point.

theilltemperedclavecinist · 25/04/2024 12:42

People use TWAW in at least two different ways, so changing one's mind doesn't equal a confession of previous dishonesty or gross stupidity:

First: a TW has always been female but has wrongly developed as a male. She needs her documents correcting, access to certain medical resources, and protection from discrimination for looking a bit different. Her wrongly assigned birth sex and medical history are none of your damned business. This (probably quite rare) view is at the heart of the GRA (which, by the way, is still pretty transphobic, for not ordering original birth records to be thrown into a volcano, and not letting female-registered men inherit baronetcies). This form of TWAW has no room for compromise - the most they might concede would be disclosure of birth sex for medical reasons or accepting that women who happen to have gross male body morphology have an unacceptably unfair advantage in sports.

Second: We don't know why TW think they're W, but this is a technologically advanced democracy and in the spirit of classical liberalism we're going to respect their autonomy and give them what they want, because where's the harm? TWAW is a legal fiction, or immersive performance, or a new social etiquette.

Almost everyone falls into the second group until they start thinking about it and realise there is harm. Maybe the correct response is not TWAM but - TWAW for social purposes and I politely respect that, but the real differences between TW and women mean we can't always treat them the same.

NonLinguisticRhetoricIsMyKryptonite · 25/04/2024 12:43

I'll rarely trust politicians as the overarching instinct for so many is personal survival despite the consequences for others. They'll say whatever maintains their personal power and will help them survive into the future.

There was an interesting exchange a while back about losing "scales upon scales" over your eyes and how it's a gradual process.

Discussion in 2022 that's well worth reading from here onwards.

[Quotes another poster] "You look at the handful of men with gender dysphoria and how to include them, and wish, with all your heart, that it could be that simple again."
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me?messages=100&pg=1* [/Q]*

This thread has been astonishing. I thought the scales had fallen from my eyes several months ago and realise now the scales had only fallen from the scales. The process of burrowing down beneath the layers of gas lighting, compromising, desire to be kind and inclusive that have clouded the arguments and caused people to find these issues confusing is really a journey in understanding how massively the world is run by men, for men. I thought I knew that, but I didn’t really have a clue.

I'd accept this explanation from some people because it's substantially true. Whether or not people need an apology from such people is an individual decision.

Break it down for me? | Mumsnet

Hi all, I am fairly new to the discussion on the impact that transwomen are having on women generally and I want to more fully understand the issues (...

http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me?messages=100&pg=1

MrsOvertonsWindow · 25/04/2024 12:44

LoobiJee · 25/04/2024 12:30

I think, in order to really shift the debate to where it needs to be, people who previously said "trans women are women" need to acknowledge that it was not true and they never actually believed it to be true, and reflect upon why they said it when they knew it wasn't true.
^^
It would be far more honest to say, "I have previously said I believe that trans women are women. I apologise for saying this. It was not my honest belief. I repeated a statement I knew was untrue because I believed that it was the kind and respectful thing to do.

Agree, but with one addition:

I repeated a statement I knew was untrue because I believed that it was the politically expedient thing to do which could be marketed as the “kind and respectful” thing to do.

This.
There were 9 Tory politicians preceeding Keegan as Secretary of state for education. I've had letters from at least 2 of them dismissing my concerns about safeguarding, sport and safety in schools in favour of the "inclusivity" of mixed sex facilities for children. The letters written by civil servants but signed by MPs

But I'll repress my fury at the damage done to children in order to "welcome" these unthinking fools onto the RSOH. And urge them to consider why they signed up to such an appalling set of beliefs and willingly threw children and women under the bus in favour of...??? Who did they think they were supporting in all this? Who influenced them?

MagicKittens · 25/04/2024 12:54

Second: We don't know why TW think they're W, but this is a technologically advanced democracy and in the spirit of classical liberalism we're going to respect their autonomy and give them what they want, because where's the harm? TWAW is a legal fiction, or immersive performance, or a new social etiquette.

I think (though it's hardly a profound insight!) that there is a third option: much as we might reject it, so much in every society is gendered, from expected roles down to such trivia as the style of buttons on a shirt, that 'living as a woman' can be seen to make a sort of sense on that level, much as it makes sense to say 'this statue, or this painting, or this fictional description is of a woman'.

That's why beardy blokes like Alex Wotsit with his 'expanding the bandwidth of bullshitting womanhood' are so easy for almost everyone to reject.

lifeturnsonadime · 25/04/2024 13:03

This is a start.

Now remove unisex toilets from schools and stop harming the education of girls.

Reinstate single sex sports in schools.

Impose sanctions on schools that continue to teacher gender and / or socially affirm children.

EasternStandard · 25/04/2024 13:04

lifeturnsonadime · 25/04/2024 13:03

This is a start.

Now remove unisex toilets from schools and stop harming the education of girls.

Reinstate single sex sports in schools.

Impose sanctions on schools that continue to teacher gender and / or socially affirm children.

Agree

theilltemperedclavecinist · 25/04/2024 13:11

@MagicKittens well yes, the current local feminine cultural norms (and there are always some) are a handy way for TW to persuade us to socialise with them like women.

The trans old guard must be furious with Alex Whatsit and all those erotic cross-dressers making TikToks of themselves wanking in women's toilets. They also don't rate Stonewall, maybe because they made the trans umbrella too big.

theDudesmummy · 25/04/2024 13:27

@miri1985 I cannot believe that more than ridiculous (and scientifically completely illiterate) statement from the Lib Dems, especially the bit about "infantilises autistic people". Did they miss the fact that the report was about children not "people". Has anyone challenged them about it?