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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
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12
IncyWincyEyeroll · 25/04/2024 13:43

It's probably coincidental timing but civil service SEEN members got a mail out this week saying DFE have formally recognised a DFE SEEN staff network. So there must be some civil servants there with a grip on reality. Hopefully the tide is really turning but it'll need to turn a bloody long way

Soigneur · 25/04/2024 13:51

Screamingabdabz · 24/04/2024 23:03

Yeah funny how people were willing to burn witches first then bother to do their homework… I know we should be pathetically grateful at these statements but I’m still bitter about the absolute refusal to listen to women in the first place.

They did listen to a woman - Dr Hilary Cass.

NonLinguisticRhetoricIsMyKryptonite · 25/04/2024 14:09

theDudesmummy · 25/04/2024 13:31

Have people seen this woeful load of bleating?

The culture war of the “gender-critical” has broken the NHS (libdemvoice.org)

Yes, it's us wot broke the NHS. Riiiiight,

Other research has overly focussed on transgender women and bears an undercurrent of the fetishisation that we’re often targets of, yet remained influential in the field for decades.
One example of this is that there has never been a longitudinal study of the impact of progesterone alongside estrogen in feminising hormones, which are routinely denied due to evidence showing no effect on breast growth, but anecdotally has an effect on mental health, which has never been evaluated. The assumption of medical researchers that trans women are only interested in breast development, and not in the mental health benefits of the hormone which is available to cis women, is one example of research being rooted in trans misogyny.

Tell me you're not across the centuries of ignoring women's health issues and those that continue to this day (e.g., decades to diagnose endometriosis, women and pain, appropriate doses of medicines) without telling me…(etc.)

Some authors genuinely cannot perceive of of a world without themselves and their concerns being centred.

Dineasair · 25/04/2024 14:13

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 25/04/2024 09:39

At the time of writing [that trans women are women], I didn’t have any direct experience of this topic and took advice on how best to respond, given the complexities surrounding individual cases. Having now spoken to experts and professionals, like many, my understanding has evolved.

I think this is a really odd statement to make.

You don't need to have direct experience of being a trans person, or direct experience of dealing with trans people, to understand whether a trans woman is a woman or not.

You don't even need to have direct experience of being a woman, although Gillian Keegan is a woman, and so does have that direct experience.

She's making it sound as though she previously only had a simplistic understanding of what a woman is and whether a trans woman is one, and now "having spoken to experts and professionals" her understanding has evolved and become more sophisticated.

But that's not true, is it? It's not that the answer to the question, "What is a woman?" is a complex one. On the contrary, the answer is really very simple, but it is one that Stonewall and their ilk don't like.

There is absolutely no need to speak to experts or professionals in order to understand what a woman is and why a trans woman is not one.

I think, in order to really shift the debate to where it needs to be, people who previously said "trans women are women" need to acknowledge that it was not true and they never actually believed it to be true, and reflect upon why they said it when they knew it wasn't true.

It would be far more honest to say, "I have previously said I believe that trans women are women. I apologise for saying this. It was not my honest belief. I repeated a statement I knew was untrue because I believed that it was the kind and respectful thing to do. I didn't have any direct experience of this topic and took advice on how best to respond, given the complexities surrounding trans people's identities. Having now spoken to many people, including experts and professionals, I now believe that this was not the right way to respond, and that in repeating a statement I knew to be untrue I unwittingly contributed to a culture where the honest discussion of biological sex has become taboo. We need to be able to talk about sex and gender using clear and unambiguous language to ensure that the rights and needs of all groups are fairly balanced. Saying that trans women are women, and by implication, that there is no valid reason to distinguish between these two groups, makes that discussion more difficult. Trans people's rights and identities are important and should be respected, but so are women's. It is wrong to prevent women from having the language they need to define and discuss themselves as a biological sex class."

Well said 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

UtopiaPlanitia · 25/04/2024 14:24

RainWithSunnySpells · 24/04/2024 23:39

It is worrying how many people just went along with the slogan without having even a moment of critical thought about whether it was true or not.

Rain, I see your excellent QOTSA vid and I add Radiohead 'Burn the Witch' 🤘Who doesn’t love a bit of 'Trumpton meets The Wicker Man' 😬

Radiohead - Burn The Witch

‘Burn the Witch’ is taken from ‘A Moon Shaped Pool’ out on XL Recordings. Buy & stream it here: https://radiohead.ffm.to/amoonshapedpoolDirector: Chris Hopew...

https://youtu.be/yI2oS2hoL0k?feature=shared

Allthegoodnamesarechosen · 25/04/2024 14:34

‘ Politicians who change their mind rather than doubling down should be celebrated not vilified. Admitting you’re wrong and changing is what we need in more people. We teach our kids that right?

let’s just celebrate and publicise this turn around’

I don’t think we have a choice, tbh. If we are going to dismiss as a hypocrite or coward everyone who claims to have seen the light ( however late) we are going to have very few allies, and we are going to need them. The TRA are not just sitting on their hands saying ‘ oh okay, fair cop, I’ll roll up my banner and put my stilettos in the charity bin’.

when Christianity became ‘legal’ in the fourth century CE there was considerable conflict between the Christians who had proclaimed their faith in the face of persecution , and those who had shut up, burnt the incense in front of the Emperor and practised their faith in private. ( Of course, the ranks of the former had been considerably thinned by martyrdom). Eventually, the reconverting bishops and laity were accepted, partly because there just weren’t enough of the steadfast to fill the new hierarchy. The concept of forgiveness for the prodigals did some heavy lifting.

(not many of the latter are recognised as Saints, though.)

miri1985 · 25/04/2024 16:19

theDudesmummy · 25/04/2024 13:27

@miri1985 I cannot believe that more than ridiculous (and scientifically completely illiterate) statement from the Lib Dems, especially the bit about "infantilises autistic people". Did they miss the fact that the report was about children not "people". Has anyone challenged them about it?

I know, I went on Layla "looking into souls" Moran's twitter to see had she commented on Cass and shes been tweeting about how we need to trust the science on climate change. I don't get how the Lib Dems can be talking out of both sides of their mouths when it comes to trusting science and experts on one issue but also on another issue telling us that feelings matter more than science and ignore experts

JanesLittleGirl · 25/04/2024 18:21

I can't forgive.
I can't forget.
I can't believe anything that you or any of the other reverse ferreters say ever again.

I'm not sorry if this isn't helpful.

Floisme · 25/04/2024 18:31

IcakethereforeIam · 25/04/2024 18:02

Thanks for the link. I quoted Maya Forstater's diplomatic, welcoming response upthread so, in the interests of balance, I also bloody love this from Julie:

'Saved in a secure folder, I have a number of emails and other forms of communication from politicians from both the Labour and the Conservative parties saying they completely agree with me on this issue but can’t speak out because it could lead to social exclusion. But we pay these people to represent our interests – there can be no excuse.'

I flip flop all over the place on this. On the one hand, I'm pragmatic and I know that, in order to win, we need influential people to change position. But on the other hand I really, really want to know the names of those politicians in Julie's inbox.

LoobiJee · 25/04/2024 18:33

IcakethereforeIam · 25/04/2024 18:02

A few quotes.

The rats leaving the sinking ship grow in number each day. But the victims – the children whose lives have been wrecked, the parents who have been forced to endure the rule of Stonewall – may never recover. And what of the women who were forced to defend their spaces? Some of them had their reputations tarnished or lost their jobs in defence of common sense, while Keegan comfortably toed the trans line. “

“Senior politicians in the two major parties, including Sir Keir “99.9 per cent of women don’t have a penis” Starmer, capitulated to transgender ideology out of a cowardly fear. They watched on as the likes of Rosie Duffield suffered for being brave and principled.

Saved in a secure folder, I have a number of emails and other forms of communication from politicians from both the Labour and the Conservative parties saying they completely agree with me on this issue but can’t speak out because it could lead to social exclusion. But we pay these people to represent our interests – there can be no excuse.

“She and others made a deliberate choice to indulge reckless ideology over the rights of women. “

MrsOvertonsWindow · 25/04/2024 20:30

LoobiJee · 25/04/2024 18:33

A few quotes.

The rats leaving the sinking ship grow in number each day. But the victims – the children whose lives have been wrecked, the parents who have been forced to endure the rule of Stonewall – may never recover. And what of the women who were forced to defend their spaces? Some of them had their reputations tarnished or lost their jobs in defence of common sense, while Keegan comfortably toed the trans line. “

“Senior politicians in the two major parties, including Sir Keir “99.9 per cent of women don’t have a penis” Starmer, capitulated to transgender ideology out of a cowardly fear. They watched on as the likes of Rosie Duffield suffered for being brave and principled.

Saved in a secure folder, I have a number of emails and other forms of communication from politicians from both the Labour and the Conservative parties saying they completely agree with me on this issue but can’t speak out because it could lead to social exclusion. But we pay these people to represent our interests – there can be no excuse.

“She and others made a deliberate choice to indulge reckless ideology over the rights of women. “

That's a great blistering article from Julie. Many of the comments are so powerful.

WickedSerious · 25/04/2024 20:41

Men aren't women.

Why would anyone need an 'expert' to point that out to them?

Kendodd · 25/04/2024 20:55

I actually have a lot of respect for politicians admitting they were wrong and making Uturns. I wish they'd admit they were wrong about loads of other stuff and working to change track and fix other stuff.

RainWithSunnySpells · 25/04/2024 21:27

UtopiaPlanitia · 25/04/2024 14:24

Rain, I see your excellent QOTSA vid and I add Radiohead 'Burn the Witch' 🤘Who doesn’t love a bit of 'Trumpton meets The Wicker Man' 😬

That was great. 🔥

I wondered if there are any other 'burn the witch' songs and I thought of 'Am I Evil.' So no witch burning in the title, however, the first line is 'My mother was a witch, she was burnt alive.'

Close enough?

ladygindiva · 25/04/2024 21:29

Screamingabdabz · 24/04/2024 23:03

Yeah funny how people were willing to burn witches first then bother to do their homework… I know we should be pathetically grateful at these statements but I’m still bitter about the absolute refusal to listen to women in the first place.

Same here.

Swashbuckled · 25/04/2024 21:54

Not got to the end of the thread yet, so may be repeating; sorry, if so.

But I agree that studies need to be done with regard to how come so many people went along with these beliefs even though they didn’t believe them. Actually, at some level, they knew they didn’t believe them but they also allowed themselves to believe that they did.

This needs to be done so it doesn’t happen again. It feels so similar to the range of devotion in Putin’s followers. Well, any dictatorship. There are genuine devotees, and there are those who don’t believe but strategically conform in order to survive. It’s the middle ground that needs studying.

Obviously, some people aren’t very good at thinking and we know that. But so many intelligent and educated professionals; biological women too? A kind of mass grooming, but successful with people we would assume would be wise to being groomed.

We talk about it being Orwellian, which it is. But we should study the process to know how it worked.

Snowypeaks · 26/04/2024 05:28

This is what Julie Bindel thinks about Gillian Keegan's conversion:
She's a rat leaving a sinking ship and that she has a duty now to root GII out of her department and the education system.

https://twitter.com/bindelj/status/1783607434910539790

https://twitter.com/bindelj/status/1783607434910539790

Snowypeaks · 26/04/2024 05:31

Sorry, I see the full article has been posted already.

binaryfinery · 26/04/2024 05:50

Yes. I’m glad she done a u-turn, yes we have to welcome it blah, blah, blah.

But it’s so bloody disturbing how many senior politicians are prepared to form opinions on serious policy issues that seriously affect all of us, without bothering to look into the issue at all. This wasn’t an unexpected question on an issue she knew nothing about. She formed a deliberate opinion on a very public and contentious issue. She can’t say ‘oh really? I just never thougbt about it much! Aren’t I a one? Giggle’ and have any integrity.

It’s not even like this is a difficult or complex area, despite what she’s claiming to try to avoid looking thick. It’s quite obvious that TW are not W. It’s quite easy to think through the problems in safeguarding and rights to say they are. And there were plenty of resources to help her.

What poor quality politicians we have now, what poor quality thinkers, what low integrity. What low grade political discourse we have now.

Shameful.

Snowypeaks · 26/04/2024 06:13

Allthegoodnamesarechosen · 25/04/2024 14:34

‘ Politicians who change their mind rather than doubling down should be celebrated not vilified. Admitting you’re wrong and changing is what we need in more people. We teach our kids that right?

let’s just celebrate and publicise this turn around’

I don’t think we have a choice, tbh. If we are going to dismiss as a hypocrite or coward everyone who claims to have seen the light ( however late) we are going to have very few allies, and we are going to need them. The TRA are not just sitting on their hands saying ‘ oh okay, fair cop, I’ll roll up my banner and put my stilettos in the charity bin’.

when Christianity became ‘legal’ in the fourth century CE there was considerable conflict between the Christians who had proclaimed their faith in the face of persecution , and those who had shut up, burnt the incense in front of the Emperor and practised their faith in private. ( Of course, the ranks of the former had been considerably thinned by martyrdom). Eventually, the reconverting bishops and laity were accepted, partly because there just weren’t enough of the steadfast to fill the new hierarchy. The concept of forgiveness for the prodigals did some heavy lifting.

(not many of the latter are recognised as Saints, though.)

I love little titbits of information like this. Thanks.

Human beings are the same everywhere and throughout history, aren't they?

RainWithSunnySpells · 26/04/2024 08:30

Swashbuckled, I think you are talking about the concept of 'Ketman.'

'In 1953, he published The Captive Mind, a series of essays about the inner lives of intellectuals living under totalitarianism. In it, he took aim at the notion that tyranny crushes thought. Rather, he found that illiberal regimes could provoke their citizens to engage in the most elaborate mental acrobatics. In The Origins of Totalitarianism (1951), Arendt had written that the ideal subjects of totalitarianism are people ‘for whom the distinction between fact and fiction … and the distinction between true and false … no longer exist’. Miłosz found that the reverse was true. The subjects produced by totalitarianism were not mindless drones, but skillful dissemblers, as capable of self-justification and moral hair-splitting as the best-trained Jesuit. The name Miłosz gave to this new talent was ‘Ketman’. It is as difficult to define precisely as it is essential to understanding the nature of life under authoritarianism.'

https://aeon.co/ideas/ketman-and-doublethink-what-it-costs-to-comply-with-tyranny

Chersfrozenface · 26/04/2024 08:51

When going to church was a sign of respectability and indeed a necessity for many roles, how many people were committed Anglicans and how many went along with it because it was socially necessary?

How many people go to church in the US for similar reasons and because it's a safety net?

Mumteedum · 26/04/2024 08:56

Crankywiddershins · 24/04/2024 22:52

Can't do a share token but those chickens are coming home to roost.

And🙄 there's an election coming

Dineasair · 26/04/2024 10:54

MrWarmth · 24/04/2024 23:00

Both Labour and the Tories know the majority of people in this country are not pro trans, so whatever they believe behind closed doors, they will become more gender critical as the general election comes closer.

I don't care if they're not sincere, our children need to be protected.

If they aren’t sincere then the danger is that they will flip to pro trans again when they win the election.