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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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12
Dineasair · 27/04/2024 12:27

MrWarmth · 27/04/2024 07:25

Ok, so not the perfect analogy but I stick by it because at this point it's too late to back out. A bit like Brexit. What I mean is a political party going back on it's principles after being elected will mean they end up governing for only one term and neither Labour or the Conservatives want that.

I might be wrong but I genuinely thinks as awkward as Kier Starmer can be at times when he talks, he's a genuine guy who is open to learning when new evidence comes to light and as such he is the better ally for actual women and for our children.

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Seriously? You’ve got to be joking!

Dineasair · 27/04/2024 12:29

EasternStandard · 27/04/2024 07:27

I don’t think Labour are sincere about much what they are is a collection of conflicting political views from Lammy and Butler to Starmer

The obvious believers who will try to push their needs to Starmer who is overall concerned with not losing, and saying whatever not to lose

Isla Bryson helped them stop trumpeting Self ID but at the same time Starmer said ‘you need to take the public with you’

His intention is obviously to avoid challenge, whether he’s still keen on taking people with him who knows, he manages to avoid talking about anything difficult

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Yes, and he changes his mind every five minutes, depending on which way the winds blowing that day.

Dineasair · 27/04/2024 12:30

AllProperTeaIsTheft · 27/04/2024 07:35

I might be wrong but I genuinely thinks as awkward as Kier Starmer can be at times when he talks, he's a genuine guy who is open to learning when new evidence comes to light and as such he is the better ally for actual women and for our children.

I'm genuinely wondering what makes you think that. It's not even about being an 'ally'. It's about having the modicum of intelligence and honesty required to say that, actually, 100% of women don’t have a penis. No new evidence needs to come to light for him to know this simple fact. Obviously that goes for politicians of all parties, but I see no evidence that Starmer is any better than the rest on this.

👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

Dineasair · 27/04/2024 12:31

Floisme · 27/04/2024 09:25

I see no reason to trust either party on this score.

The Conservatives might have made more of the right noises but I've still seen no sign that they're about to follow through on clarifying the meaning of 'sex' in the Equality Act before parliament finishes. That's troubling. And there's every chance of seeing Penny Mordaunt standing as leader after the election (assuming she keeps her seat).

Admittedly I won't be voting Conservative anyway so I watch my own party far more carefully, and what I see so far is a backtrack from full-on self ID that leaves many questions unanswered, plus open support for gender ideology up as far as deputy leader. I understand that that Keir Starmer - this genuine guy who's so open to learning - has yet to speak to either Rosie Duffield or Labour Women's Declaration. And, as for the Tories saying anything to get votes, well it's Starmer who gave them the words to use when he claimed women can have a penis.

👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

NoWordForFluffy · 27/04/2024 12:41

Floisme · 27/04/2024 10:48

I kind of think the very least this government owes us is a clarification of the Equality Act before they leave office. You'd also have thought they'd be keen to do so in order to expose and exploit the opposition's reaction.

Edited

Abso-fucking-lutely. I'm wondering why they aren't taking the opportunity, frankly. Unless it's a matter of timing and it'll be done just before they announce the GE, so it's fresh in voters' minds?

Chersfrozenface · 27/04/2024 12:53

NoWordForFluffy · 27/04/2024 12:41

Abso-fucking-lutely. I'm wondering why they aren't taking the opportunity, frankly. Unless it's a matter of timing and it'll be done just before they announce the GE, so it's fresh in voters' minds?

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Or unless the lawyers they've consulted say it can't be done under the existing legislation and they don't want to say that when wanting to use this against Labour in the GE campaign.

OR they/their lawyers are waiting for the outcome of the FWS appeal to the Supreme Court.

NoWordForFluffy · 27/04/2024 12:56

OR they/their lawyers are waiting for the outcome of the FWS appeal to the Supreme Court.

Hopefully there's a hearing date soon as it's over a month since papers were filed and served.

Floisme · 27/04/2024 13:04

Or maybe there's more division about it within the party than we think and the leadership are wary of making it public?

That's all pure speculation but I do find it strange, especially, as I've already said, given its potential for exposing the opposition.

Snowypeaks · 27/04/2024 13:12

It is possible that they are waiting on the FWS appeal.

I am told statutory instruments aren't any easier/quicker to sort out than new primary legislation, but there must be a reason why they exist and since Truss's amendment seems to be dead and the puberty blockers issue is covered by Cass, I wish Kemi Badeenoch would get on with issuing the government's own amendment using the Sex Matters wording instead.
It's essentially the same as Truss's but more elegant - Truss's amendment tried to define bio sex, but the Sex Matters one says simply that the GRA doesn't apply to the EA. Which is neater.

This is the wording from the SM website:
What could an amendment look like?
(X) In this Act, references to female persons and women:
(a) also refer to a person who was born female and has acquired the male sex under the GRA 2004
(b) do not refer to a person who was born male and has acquired the female sex under that Act.
(X) In this Act, references to male persons and men:
(a) also refer to a person who was born male and has acquired the female sex under the GRA 2004
(b) do not refer to a person who was born female and has acquired the male sex under that Act.

Edited for accuracy.

Snowypeaks · 27/04/2024 13:15

Forgot to say that a SI would be better than case law, however authoritative.

NoWordForFluffy · 27/04/2024 13:19

Yes. I'd prefer an amendment to the statute rather than case law.

We need one of Kemi's constituents to email her and question it (as they don't have to respond to non-constituents).

Edited to add: I can't see the FWS hearing going ahead before a GE has to be called as I doubt there's much judicial availability.

Floisme · 27/04/2024 14:11

Rightly or wrongly, I will be unimpressed if the government makes this a general election issue given that they still have an extremely comfortable majority and when they're not shying away from tabling other divisive legislation.

I'm not a potential Conservative voter so maybe they don't think they need to take account of views such as mine, but I'm afraid I'm likely to see it as a deeply cynical move.

IwantToRetire · 27/04/2024 21:10

Abso-fucking-lutely. I'm wondering why they aren't taking the opportunity, frankly. Unless it's a matter of timing and it'll be done just before they announce the GE, so it's fresh in voters' minds?

Its becausse as said up thread when the discussion was had in response to the 2 opposing petitions re the EA, in terms of public statement and number of signatories those saying the EA should be be ammended were in the majority.

And even if the Tories are majority GC in terms of their total agenda this issue is way down the list.

Sort of surprised this is still being discussed.

Unless of course anyone has evidence that those who were behind not changing the EA and / or spoke up for this in the debate have all suddenly publicly said, we've seen the light of course the word sex should be clarified.

Keegan saying I was mislead by those who briefged me is virtually irrelevant.

The only reason this would go back up the Tory agenda for the last few months they are in office, if suddengly all the TWAW signed a joint letter saying we were in the wrong. And so that this never happens again lets amend the EA.

NoWordForFluffy · 27/04/2024 21:23

IwantToRetire · 27/04/2024 21:10

Abso-fucking-lutely. I'm wondering why they aren't taking the opportunity, frankly. Unless it's a matter of timing and it'll be done just before they announce the GE, so it's fresh in voters' minds?

Its becausse as said up thread when the discussion was had in response to the 2 opposing petitions re the EA, in terms of public statement and number of signatories those saying the EA should be be ammended were in the majority.

And even if the Tories are majority GC in terms of their total agenda this issue is way down the list.

Sort of surprised this is still being discussed.

Unless of course anyone has evidence that those who were behind not changing the EA and / or spoke up for this in the debate have all suddenly publicly said, we've seen the light of course the word sex should be clarified.

Keegan saying I was mislead by those who briefged me is virtually irrelevant.

The only reason this would go back up the Tory agenda for the last few months they are in office, if suddengly all the TWAW signed a joint letter saying we were in the wrong. And so that this never happens again lets amend the EA.

It was mentioned in the press as recently as last month as potentially being in the Tories' manifesto. And we all know that Tories leak policy ideas before announcing them. So it's clearly something they're still considering.

I would imagine it's gaining momentum post-Cass too (despite Cass being in relation to a different issue, it's blown the doors off the entire GI narrative).

PTSDBarbiegirl · 27/04/2024 21:32

Too fucking late Keegan. Women WITH morals have said for years, 'this won't age well'. It hasn't. It might help to hear you exclaim in Parliament that JKR was right and Trans identifying males are in fact MEN. The courtesy that women used to extend to these males, in female toilets, even changing rooms, saying Debbie not Derek and she not he has gone. Huge damage has been done.

IwantToRetire · 27/04/2024 22:00

I would imagine it's gaining momentum post-Cass too

The dumbed down personality politics of the main stream media reporting means that very few people will make the link between the Cass report and women's sex based rights.

I do think on both issues there has been some progress in terms of raising awareness, but for most people this will be a fringe issue.

And even if Sunak was committed to it, he has so many rats wanting to leave the sinking ship, that he probably doesn't want to give them a gang plank to a "respectable" retreat of saying Suank has lost his way and if focusing on minority interests / the woke war rather than bread and butter issues.

WecouldhaveanewPrimeMinister · 28/04/2024 10:10

in terms of public statement and number of signatories those saying the EA should be be ammended were in the majority.

Those saying the EA should be be ammended were not in the majority

NoWordForFluffy · 28/04/2024 10:17

WecouldhaveanewPrimeMinister · 28/04/2024 10:10

in terms of public statement and number of signatories those saying the EA should be be ammended were in the majority.

Those saying the EA should be be ammended were not in the majority

Yes. That's what was said, albeit with a typo (double 'be' instead of 'not').

WecouldhaveanewPrimeMinister · 28/04/2024 13:21

NoWordForFluffy · 28/04/2024 10:17

Yes. That's what was said, albeit with a typo (double 'be' instead of 'not').

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Ok understood. I was wanting to be clear not meaning to be pedantic.

NoWordForFluffy · 28/04/2024 13:22

WecouldhaveanewPrimeMinister · 28/04/2024 13:21

Ok understood. I was wanting to be clear not meaning to be pedantic.

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I think taken in context with the rest of the post it could be understood.

IwantToRetire · 28/04/2024 22:01

109,462 Update the Equality Act to make clear the characteristic “sex” is biological sex

138,886 Commit to not amending the Equality Act's definition of sex

ie nearly 30,000 more said they did NOT want the EA amended.

NoWordForFluffy · 28/04/2024 22:11

IwantToRetire · 28/04/2024 22:01

109,462 Update the Equality Act to make clear the characteristic “sex” is biological sex

138,886 Commit to not amending the Equality Act's definition of sex

ie nearly 30,000 more said they did NOT want the EA amended.

All moot if the Tories commit to doing it though.

IwantToRetire · 28/04/2024 22:15

All moot if the Tories commit to doing it though

As I said earlier on this thread, given the numbers and the tone of the resulting MPs debate, it doesn't look an easy win.

And they will think they have enough problems getting policies through Parliament, even with a (dwindling) majority, they would risk a defeat on this issue. Nor would they make it a whipped vote.

NoWordForFluffy · 28/04/2024 22:17

IwantToRetire · 28/04/2024 22:15

All moot if the Tories commit to doing it though

As I said earlier on this thread, given the numbers and the tone of the resulting MPs debate, it doesn't look an easy win.

And they will think they have enough problems getting policies through Parliament, even with a (dwindling) majority, they would risk a defeat on this issue. Nor would they make it a whipped vote.

Yes, but the debate was before Pandora's box was opened on all this nonsense.

Plus, they'll whip if they think they have to. Why do you think they wouldn't?

IwantToRetire · 29/04/2024 00:48

And again as said up thread very few people apart from those of us on FWR and campaigning groups will link the Cass Report and children to the issue of why sex in the EA should mean biological sex.

To the population as a whole they will think of health malpractice.

They wont be thinking about grown men in women's toilets or rape crisis centres.

There just isn't that awareness.