Gillian Keegan: I'll stop saying Transwomen are women

[DirtyDuchess]

I unfortunately haven't got a token for this but hopefully someone can share it.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/04/24/gillian-keegan-will-stop-saying-trans-women-are-women/

Politicians who change their mind rather than doubling down should be celebrated not vilified. Admitting you’re wrong and changing is what we need in more people. We teach our kids that right?

let’s just celebrate and publicise this turn around

I’ve had men use that line with me in a workplace contact. What do they expect an actual grown woman’s response to be? Oh ok, as your adolescent female relative thinks that, then my life experience and critical thinking skills count for nothing, and I’ll bow to your lazy, patronising, ageist and sexist pat on the head? I mean.

Also they are the type of men to sanctimoniously preach about micro aggressions, apparently completely unaware of how routinely women have to deal with that sort of know it all flannel from men like them.

Damage limitation IMO, although another addition to the troops is always welcome. Better to stand up now and admit you were wrong then get pulled up in the months/years to come, and those deniers most definitely will.

Yes my thoughts too

Having now spoken to experts and professionals, like many, my understanding has evolved.

I wonder what they revealed that wasn’t already clear?

Shouldn’t it be obvious that ‘trans women are women’ is a slogan that falls apart when applied to policy and legislation, because it relies on there being no definition for ‘trans’ and ‘women’?

However, better late than never.

Well well well - is there an election soon by any chance??🙄
It is absolutely astounding that these people with so much responsibility and accountability can issue statements without clear and critical thinking only to completely do an about turn a few years later.
Thank you Dr Cass
oh and thanks @RainWithSunnySpells love a bit of QOTSA ☺️

So many politicians have now publicly changed their minds, and I’m glad they have (or at least they are saying they have). What I’d like to know, is why they held the view that TWAW in the first place? Understanding how this ideology took such a hold on public life in this country is the only way we can stop it happening again. It would also expose the lack of any supporting logic for those who are still clinging on.

I'm going to follow Maya Forstater's lead, as quoted in that article, and welcome this, although I'm not sure I can do it quite as graciously as she can:
'This change in position by Gillian Keegan is a welcome development and sets an example for other politicians to start using clear, serious language rather than trans activist slogans.
“For several years, trans activist lobby groups pushed the use of phrases such as ‘trans women are women’ as a tactic to silence debate and fair questions about how gender self-identification clashes with women’s rights.
“Many didn’t recognise the dangers of these slogans early on, including politicians who doubtless thought they were simply supporting a good cause. It takes guts to publicly change your mind. Women’s rights and the safeguarding of children are serious issues that need to be addressed with clear and accurate language.”

But I'd also like to know who Keegan 'took advice' from and whether she still works with them.

Will she? That's nice. A private citizen can have any opinion they want and change their mind about it 3 times a day if they like. A politician, however, gets 1 chance. She majorly fouled up so she has to go.

Burn the witches!! ...... oops (sorry not my fault)

At the time of writing [that trans women are women], I didn’t have any direct experience of this topic and took advice on how best to respond, given the complexities surrounding individual cases. Having now spoken to experts and professionals, like many, my understanding has evolved.

I think this is a really odd statement to make.

You don't need to have direct experience of being a trans person, or direct experience of dealing with trans people, to understand whether a trans woman is a woman or not.

You don't even need to have direct experience of being a woman, although Gillian Keegan is a woman, and so does have that direct experience.

She's making it sound as though she previously only had a simplistic understanding of what a woman is and whether a trans woman is one, and now "having spoken to experts and professionals" her understanding has evolved and become more sophisticated.

But that's not true, is it? It's not that the answer to the question, "What is a woman?" is a complex one. On the contrary, the answer is really very simple, but it is one that Stonewall and their ilk don't like.

There is absolutely no need to speak to experts or professionals in order to understand what a woman is and why a trans woman is not one.

I think, in order to really shift the debate to where it needs to be, people who previously said "trans women are women" need to acknowledge that it was not true and they never actually believed it to be true, and reflect upon why they said it when they knew it wasn't true.

It would be far more honest to say, "I have previously said I believe that trans women are women. I apologise for saying this. It was not my honest belief. I repeated a statement I knew was untrue because I believed that it was the kind and respectful thing to do. I didn't have any direct experience of this topic and took advice on how best to respond, given the complexities surrounding trans people's identities. Having now spoken to many people, including experts and professionals, I now believe that this was not the right way to respond, and that in repeating a statement I knew to be untrue I unwittingly contributed to a culture where the honest discussion of biological sex has become taboo. We need to be able to talk about sex and gender using clear and unambiguous language to ensure that the rights and needs of all groups are fairly balanced. Saying that trans women are women, and by implication, that there is no valid reason to distinguish between these two groups, makes that discussion more difficult. Trans people's rights and identities are important and should be respected, but so are women's. It is wrong to prevent women from having the language they need to define and discuss themselves as a biological sex class."

It's mob crowd mentality. People just love a good witch hunt.

Tides are not turning. People steeped in this ideology still control the NHS (see responses to Cass) and the Civil Service as well as NGOs. There's an update, but see what Sayers discovered about the influence of the unaccountable Global Disinformation Index that can destroy business models.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5051761-worth-watching-unherd-investigation-inside-the-disinformation-industry-kathleen-stock-specifically-mentioned?

Golden bridges to those who cross them. Trust no-one.

Kuran’s Private Truths, Public Lies offers a case study of East European communism and shocking, what seemed like overnight fall, of several communist regimes in 1989. Kuran argues that behind such falls and "unanticipated revolutions," preference falsification concealed the uncoalesced existence of massive hidden opposition to the regimes and their parties.

It's plausible that what is happening now is that public figures are voluntarily disclosing that they adopted the pre-digested briefings and mantras of others. With Cass, they've been exposed to the perspective and evidence of an eminent paediatrician. They may well have paused for thought and discovered that they've experienced preference falsification and their own thoughts are revealed to them. So people like Keegan discover that they, privately, have never believed TWAW or "some women have a penis."

The people who briefed people like Keegan are still in post. They are still influencing policies and using the levers of power to direct money and organise our major services in line with their own ideologies and preferences.

This is going to be a long engagement. Women don't have rights, we've had social niceties and fictions that can be removed from us on a whim or by covert lobbying. The same, devastatingly, is true of the moves to safeguard children.

We've talked before about civil servants who prepare background information and help prepare speeches and answers to questions in parliament and they can strongly influence what Ministers say and who they talk to. Kemi Badenoch talked to Keira Bell against the advice of her civil servants. https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/the-tavistock-scandal-shows-the-dangers-of-civil-service-groupthink-5bj2z26c7 
Civil servants are expected to be politically neutral but there have been questions raised about what influence Stonewall (and similar organistions) exerted over the Civil Service via EDI through their diversity training and award schemes.

Myself, I certainly feel relieved, but there are still many other women (and men) ahead of Gillian Keegan in the queue for my gratitude.

I am absolutely relishing every backpaddle as they start to realise they backed the wrong horse.

The icing on the cake will be when the Harry Potter imbeciles are forced to comment.

How many children’s delusions did their words of wisdom encourage? Utter bastards.

I think anything that shows just how ridiculous the mantras are is welcome. However, when it is a person responsible for setting policy and shaping law, no, we should not forget. It shows that they are suspectible to being politically persuaded to agree to things that they haven’t seen persuasive evidence for. Or that their bar for persuasive evidence is far too low.

What are those furry little animals a bit like a weasel? Reverse, reverse

Michael Deacon nailed it today re Labour. Calls on them to give Rosie Duffield shadow secretary for women job and sack Anneliese Dodds "A spokeman for women who doesn't know what a woman is. Just give the job to Ms Duffield and end this farce now."

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/columnists/2024/04/24/jk-rowling-transgender-labour-party-weak-cass-report/

She's an absolute waste of space- this doesn't make a lot of difference to that.

Around 10 years ago, young women in my extended family joined in the overnight 'Reclaim the Night' walk in London. My memory is hazy, because I was not involved in any way, but I believe it was in conversation about their experience that I first heard 'trans women are women'. Memory says there were TW on the walk, and my young women took that as support for streets being safe at night for ALL 'women'. At that point in time, I had no problem with the concept. Things have movedon a lot, and very quickly. It has become obvious that men who identify as men cannot be trusted.

https://archive.is/w1Ygw for those who need it.

Yes, I agree with this. Which is why people's feet still need to be held to the fire as to why they said TWAW in the first place.

As MissScarletInTheBallroom says in order to really shift the debate to where it needs to be, people who previously said "trans women are women" need to acknowledge that it was not true and they never actually believed it to be true, and reflect upon why they said it when they knew it wasn't true.

It's great that there is reverse ferreting going on. But children being unnecessarily drugged and sterilised is one scandal, politicians going along with it because they were too scared to say otherwise is one of equal if not greater importance.

Because yes, the people creating this ideology to influence policy haven't stopped.

At all.

That so many politicians can state something so demonstrably untrue and dangerous, through fear, needs some forensic investigation.

Politicians who change their mind rather than doubling down should be celebrated not vilified. Admitting you’re wrong and changing is what we need in more people. We teach our kids that right?

let’s just celebrate and publicise this turn around

This ⬆️ and also this ⬇️

Myself, I certainly feel relieved, but there are still many other women (and men) ahead of Gillian Keegan in the queue for my gratitude.

The hypocrisy in her statement about how clear she's "always" been is breathtaking, as per my previous comment. However, she has crossed the golden bridge and this will unlock many more doors, while she is still Education Secretary. There is much to do in what is likely to be a very short time. As important as this issue is to me personally and all the other families impacted by the effects of gender identity belief being pushed as a truth (many families in a devastating way, that they may never fully recover from - with children and young people irrerversibly harmed), I'm not sure that the Tories have enough headway to make this a wedge issue that determines an election. That's for them to figure out. Personally, after initially planning to spoil my ballot, I'm now a single issue voter and, unless I see something tangible from Labour (like Wes Streeting fully understanding that there is no such thing as a trans child, Bridget Phillipson stating unequivocally that the pipeline from schools to medical experimentation will be stopped, Keir Starmer demonstrating a clear grasp of the issue etc etc) I will never believe that anyone other than the Tory party will sort this. As for my usual Lib Dems vote... I can't be bothered wasting the effort on typing what I think of them. So on balance, I support Gillian Keegan speaking up here (and will make an effort to ignore her hypocrisy, in the spirit of the greater good.... while waiting for a Public Inquiry to unpick what happened to get us to where we are now).

So, my thinking is that Keegan isn't massively bright, and just swims with the tide. She used to say TWAW because that used to be the fashionable thing to say, and now she says TWANW, because she believes that that is the new fashionable thing to say. Or somebody high up has told her to say it. Whatever.

My point is that with a few notable exceptions, eg Rosie Duffield, politicians are like sheep. They don't think for themselves. We should probably be encouraged that Keegan thinks it's now more politically acceptable to say that it's not possible to change sex than to say that it is.

I don't necessarily think this means it's all over, though, because as everyone has pointed out, the civil service, unis, NHS etc are riddled with this ideology and people won't go down without a fight. And a lot hinges on what Labour decides to do once it wins the election.

100% this