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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
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39
BonfireLady · 26/04/2024 17:12

@MrsOvertonsWindow thank you for the tag.

I've got a better copy (without the edges cut off) of the print version of that article now and will also add it to the other thread when I get chance.

It's got far more useful information in it than the condensed online version of it.

Hilary Cass Interview in the Times
BonfireLady · 26/04/2024 19:07

BonfireLady · 26/04/2024 17:09

It's good to hear that there is common ground that distressed children and young people deserve a "gold standard" of care. However, I second the above comments that it's impossible for a transwoman's experience from many years ago to inform what care for distressed adolescent girls should look like today. The reasons for desiring transition to address distress are completely different: adolescent girls will never be either a) young boys who prefer dresses and are told to wear trousers (by contrast, many young girls don't wear dresses because they prefer trousers - it's sad that society treats boys differently in this way) nor b) autogynophilic males who experience sexual desire when thinking of themselves as women. The experiences of girls are completely different.

I very much agree that we need to de-escalate the climate surrounding this subject and ensure that young people's needs are met. This doesn't mean falling to toxic 'both sides' dad centrism, however; rather, acting in line with a combination of existing expert concensus and ongoing research findings.

I don't know what "dad centrism" means but otherwise, this sounds sensible. However, it's really not "both sides" when it comes to toxicity. There is a world of difference in women pointing out the well-known "gender dysphoria and daily affirmation" phrase on here - and holding you to account for it's unnecessary use (surely it would have been better to pick a different phrase, no?) - and the verbal and physical threats that women and (both male and female) medical professionals face simply for advocating for sex-based rights, like women's sports, and calling for evidence based care for children.

Expert current consensus exists: the Cass Report is the most up to date example.

Typo correction:
The well-known "gender euphoria" phrase.
"Gender dysphoria" would obviously be fine to use because it isn't doesn't have any well-known euphemism associated with it. Anyone who has spent time understanding the various different aspects of gender identity belief would know full well that using phrases like gender euphoria and daily affirmation carried a weighted meaning... so would logically avoid them when engaging in good faith.

NotBadConsidering · 26/04/2024 21:57

ButterflyHatched · 26/04/2024 13:01

Aw thanks for the assessment there. Now we have established that the only possible reason my ticking detransition time-bomb hasn't exploded yet is that I'm kicking the body acceptance can down the road; that I'm cognitively impaired and captured by trans ideology, and just need to find a good conversion therapist to convince me that actually the last two and a half decades of gender euphoria and daily affirmation were just something I hallucinated, I feel suitably prepared to begin my new life.

I was early, but I was nowhere near the first. I don't know where you are getting that assumption from?

If I had Russel Viner in front of me I would thank him profusely for (eventually) authorising me to embark on an experimental treatment pathway (after clearly informing me of known side effects and implications) that very few people had the chance to take advantage of. It is hard to overstate the positive effect it has had on my life.

I'm not pretending medical transition is a miracle. I'm giving a frank account of what it is like from the frame of reference of someone who has gone through it and is now able to provide a long-term outcome retrospective. If I wanted to pretend it was a miracle, why would I have described it, warts and all, in the way I have with all its associated complexities?

Why would I have elaborated (sometimes to the point of potentially dangerous oversharing - I'm wary that a bad actor with access to the relevant records might be approaching the point of being able to identify me at this point) on the specifics of my own journey and its quirks?

Lives are complex and can simultaneously have positive and negative elements. Mine used to be quite stressful and dangerous, especially early in my transition, once I had gone full stealth and was regularly operating in trans-hostile environments. The fact that I was always correctly gendered by people who would have reacted in harmful and possibly even life-threatening ways had they become aware of my past was the only reason why I was able to do so.

While it was quite dangerous and deeply psychologically challenging to be trans at all in that era, I was able to avoid much of that baggage precisely due to having undergone the treatment I did. It certainly wasn't an easier road than the one I would have walked had I not been trans; but it was also a much easier road than the one I would have walked had I not received the treatment I did when I did.

I'm really sorry that it's challenging to contort what I have said into something that superficially appears to support an anti-trans narrative. I see you have resorted to a general mix of claiming I'm lying, or mistaken, or a statistical outlier or otherwise nonrepresentative.

Perhaps it is your belief that if you claim all these things, it will somehow overwhelm or otherwise drown out the truth of what I have actually said.

The conclusion belongs at the end, not the beginning.

You think body acceptance = detransition. There’s your problem.

You said previously you were commenced on PBs around the age of 17 in 2000. The article on the feasibility of it all was only published by the Dutch around 1997. If you weren’t the first in the UK, you were one of the first. You acknowledge it was an experimental treatment pathway commenced by Viner: was there ethics approval? Why has Viner not published any of the data on you or the patients that preceded or followed you?

I'm giving a frank account of what it is like

No you’re not. If a thread requires a trans perspective that life is great, you say life is great. If a thread requires a trans perspective that life is hard and there’s suffering that needs sympathy, that’s what you say. You’re never frank.

I see it regularly on Reddit threads. An example is people will post doom and gloom about how a certain country is “genocidal” to trans people. Then someone will ask “I’m thinking of moving to city X, what’s it like for trans people?” with replies like “it’s really accepting, never get any abuse” etc.

Perhaps it is your belief that if you claim all these things, it will somehow overwhelm or otherwise drown out the truth of what I have actually said.

No, I am pointing out all the things you have done. You misrepresent evidence. You pretend you’re not unhealthy (was it four medications you’re on?) You were puberty blocked at a later stage than this current cohort. Your medical outcomes haven’t been assessed or documented or published by your original treating doctors.

But the truth of what you say, the real truth is all there for anyone who has paid attention to your posts.

Signalbox · 27/04/2024 09:15

Drastically altering existing policy to restrict access to a demonstrably effective 30 year old treatment is an issue that affects all current trans children seeking that treatment.

Even if it was true that the treatment was demonstrably effective for the likes of you (it isn’t) and the evidence had been available for 30 years (it hasn’t) this clearly isn’t the case for the 100s of late onset teenage girls who have only very recently been turning up at gender clinics over the last 10 years. Cass is clear in her report that there is virtually no evidence of what would happen to these girls if left alone with no intervention. They simply have not bothered to do any studies at all on this cohort and they have just assumed that what applies to men/ boys must also apply to girls. (See Cass Review p.177 (14.34))

Honestly it never ceases to amaze me that anyone can think that a teen girl following a current fashion trend has anything in common with any adult male regardless of the motivation behind their claim that they are a woman.

It is totally weird to see middle-aged males pushing for these girls to be given harmful hormones simply because they are personally happy with their own transition.

borntobequiet · 27/04/2024 09:30

Honestly it never ceases to amaze me that anyone can think that a teen girl following a current fashion trend has anything in common with any adult male regardless of the motivation behind their claim that they are a woman.

This, this and this again.

Helleofabore · 27/04/2024 09:59

Even if it was true that the treatment was demonstrably effective for the likes of you (it isn’t) and the evidence had been available for 30 years (it hasn’t) this clearly isn’t the case for the 100s of late onset teenage girls who have only very recently been turning up at gender clinics over the last 10 years.

Let’s keep repeating this. We say it every thread and it gets dismissed. Hence why I now consider it blatant misogyny on the behalf of those who ignore this. And it is thousands of girls (female people) on that waiting list!

But this poster is mired and entrenched in validating their own history. By now we can recognise that they have no care for the current cohort at all. It has always been about them.

RedToothBrush · 27/04/2024 10:14

Helleofabore · 27/04/2024 09:59

Even if it was true that the treatment was demonstrably effective for the likes of you (it isn’t) and the evidence had been available for 30 years (it hasn’t) this clearly isn’t the case for the 100s of late onset teenage girls who have only very recently been turning up at gender clinics over the last 10 years.

Let’s keep repeating this. We say it every thread and it gets dismissed. Hence why I now consider it blatant misogyny on the behalf of those who ignore this. And it is thousands of girls (female people) on that waiting list!

But this poster is mired and entrenched in validating their own history. By now we can recognise that they have no care for the current cohort at all. It has always been about them.

'Gender euphoria'

Helleofabore · 27/04/2024 10:18

What is interesting Red is that when I see that term 'euphoria', I don't associate it with long term healthy decision making. Quite the opposite oftentimes.

OldCrone · 27/04/2024 10:21

And since when has it been the purpose of the NHS to supply euphoria-inducing treatment and affirm a patient's delusional beliefs?

Ingenieur · 27/04/2024 10:24

Helleofabore · 27/04/2024 10:18

What is interesting Red is that when I see that term 'euphoria', I don't associate it with long term healthy decision making. Quite the opposite oftentimes.

"Gender euphoria" is code for sexual excitement, so it makes sense that a man would let his erection drive decision-making.

https://www.reddit.com/r/asktransgender/comments/nmarjz/is_it_uncommon_to_get_erections_from_gender/

There are hundreds of threads on reddit discussing euphoria boners.

Datun · 27/04/2024 10:25

OldCrone · 26/04/2024 11:54

Yes, I said it was a case study of a [single] child, and that I was surprised that an 11-year-old child with an IQ of 80 was considered by doctors to be capable of consent to these life-changing drugs.

It's really remarkable, isn't it?

You said it was a single person, you said it was an issue that they allowed a child with an IQ of 80 to make this decision.

And yet butters eyes simply didn't read that, just a gleeful 'bingo' to justify their own position. Again.

RedToothBrush · 27/04/2024 10:28

OldCrone · 27/04/2024 10:21

And since when has it been the purpose of the NHS to supply euphoria-inducing treatment and affirm a patient's delusional beliefs?

I've made the comparison with drug addiction a couple of times. I think the trans widows threads has made similar observations too.

EasternStandard · 27/04/2024 10:49

RedToothBrush · 27/04/2024 10:28

I've made the comparison with drug addiction a couple of times. I think the trans widows threads has made similar observations too.

‘Gender euphoria’ is not incongruous with this

What were the law creators thinking? And each person who de-prioritised women and children

Helleofabore · 27/04/2024 11:17

OldCrone · 27/04/2024 10:21

And since when has it been the purpose of the NHS to supply euphoria-inducing treatment and affirm a patient's delusional beliefs?

Since when has it been ever appropriate for euphoria to be affirmed as a sought after permanent state of being. And if a patient is seeking a constant state of euphoria or is seeking further extreme medical treatment to get back that state, that is red flag territory.

And again we cycle into safeguarding territory. Experts in health care should be on the look out for this yet, it seems too often it is the goal that activists use to judge success.

RedToothBrush · 27/04/2024 11:31

Dennis Noel Kavanagh AT Jebadoo2
You bastards in private gender care be warned.

I’ve been approached to advise on private prosecutions for conspiracy GBH to children

If I were you, I’d get out now before I draft the indictment

I’m serious. This is not an idle threat.

Looks like Cass means things could REALLY interesting.

GailBlancheViola · 27/04/2024 15:27

RedToothBrush · 27/04/2024 11:31

Dennis Noel Kavanagh AT Jebadoo2
You bastards in private gender care be warned.

I’ve been approached to advise on private prosecutions for conspiracy GBH to children

If I were you, I’d get out now before I draft the indictment

I’m serious. This is not an idle threat.

Looks like Cass means things could REALLY interesting.

Things seem to be getting very interesting and serious.

BonfireLady · 27/04/2024 19:55

GailBlancheViola · 27/04/2024 15:27

Things seem to be getting very interesting and serious.

Good to see.

I'm really struggling to get my head around how much harm has already been done 😢 and how many more children and young people are still on the pathway towards it. This medical scandal needs to be stopped as soon as possible.

GailBlancheViola · 27/04/2024 19:58

BonfireLady · 27/04/2024 19:55

Good to see.

I'm really struggling to get my head around how much harm has already been done 😢 and how many more children and young people are still on the pathway towards it. This medical scandal needs to be stopped as soon as possible.

And those that promoted it, enforced it, condoned it and were party to it should be facing criminal charges.

EasternStandard · 27/04/2024 19:59

GailBlancheViola · 27/04/2024 19:58

And those that promoted it, enforced it, condoned it and were party to it should be facing criminal charges.

Yes

EasternStandard · 27/04/2024 20:03

Ingenieur · 27/04/2024 10:24

"Gender euphoria" is code for sexual excitement, so it makes sense that a man would let his erection drive decision-making.

https://www.reddit.com/r/asktransgender/comments/nmarjz/is_it_uncommon_to_get_erections_from_gender/

There are hundreds of threads on reddit discussing euphoria boners.

The use of euphoria to describe what’s going on makes the motivation clear.

Adults needing it tend to employ anything they can to keep that feeling, it means the impact to others is very much de-prioritised, including and maybe especially children

You can see it with other euphoria inducing behaviour

The scandal is why did law makers miss this? Why did they enable the ending of safeguarding for euphoria?

Zebracat · 27/04/2024 20:53

To be honest, after all I’ve read about the effects of blockers and cross sex hormones, I’m quite happy that BH can still get “euphoric” didn’t know it was a euphemism. Cant see why that’s dismissed as of no consequence for the children on the waiting list.

JanesLittleGirl · 27/04/2024 21:55

I'm still struggling to believe that a pp is willing to throw thousands of lesbian, autistic and ND girls under the bus just to validate their experience.

RedToothBrush · 27/04/2024 21:59

JanesLittleGirl · 27/04/2024 21:55

I'm still struggling to believe that a pp is willing to throw thousands of lesbian, autistic and ND girls under the bus just to validate their experience.

Why?

Only males matter.

Women are just support humans or to get off on.

JanesLittleGirl · 27/04/2024 22:15

RedToothBrush · 27/04/2024 21:59

Why?

Only males matter.

Women are just support humans or to get off on.

Thank you for clearing up my confusion. I was labouring under the illusion that posters consider all possible results.

RedToothBrush · 27/04/2024 22:22

JanesLittleGirl · 27/04/2024 22:15

Thank you for clearing up my confusion. I was labouring under the illusion that posters consider all possible results.

How can they when they can't see sex. It allows them not to see sexism.

They are a 'woman' so how can they POSSIBLY be shitting all over women and girls.

However once you see the issue, you really can't unsee it.

It's all about that euphoria. Safeguarding? Fuck that.

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