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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
Thread gallery
39
RedToothBrush · 26/04/2024 13:20

GailBlancheViola · 26/04/2024 13:12

gender euphoria and daily affirmation

Says it all.

Boom.

Helleofabore · 26/04/2024 13:22

GailBlancheViola · 26/04/2024 13:12

gender euphoria and daily affirmation

Says it all.

It certainly does.

And they never quite comprehend what they themselves write.

That is why ‘let them speak’ works everytime.

EasternStandard · 26/04/2024 13:22

GailBlancheViola · 26/04/2024 13:12

gender euphoria and daily affirmation

Says it all.

It does. That doesn’t particularly require society to comply

Just for euphoria

EasternStandard · 26/04/2024 13:32

It’s amazing that children were impacted by something so adult centric and typical to that sex class

What a massive failing by adults.

Helleofabore · 26/04/2024 13:43

ButterflyHatched · 26/04/2024 13:01

Aw thanks for the assessment there. Now we have established that the only possible reason my ticking detransition time-bomb hasn't exploded yet is that I'm kicking the body acceptance can down the road; that I'm cognitively impaired and captured by trans ideology, and just need to find a good conversion therapist to convince me that actually the last two and a half decades of gender euphoria and daily affirmation were just something I hallucinated, I feel suitably prepared to begin my new life.

I was early, but I was nowhere near the first. I don't know where you are getting that assumption from?

If I had Russel Viner in front of me I would thank him profusely for (eventually) authorising me to embark on an experimental treatment pathway (after clearly informing me of known side effects and implications) that very few people had the chance to take advantage of. It is hard to overstate the positive effect it has had on my life.

I'm not pretending medical transition is a miracle. I'm giving a frank account of what it is like from the frame of reference of someone who has gone through it and is now able to provide a long-term outcome retrospective. If I wanted to pretend it was a miracle, why would I have described it, warts and all, in the way I have with all its associated complexities?

Why would I have elaborated (sometimes to the point of potentially dangerous oversharing - I'm wary that a bad actor with access to the relevant records might be approaching the point of being able to identify me at this point) on the specifics of my own journey and its quirks?

Lives are complex and can simultaneously have positive and negative elements. Mine used to be quite stressful and dangerous, especially early in my transition, once I had gone full stealth and was regularly operating in trans-hostile environments. The fact that I was always correctly gendered by people who would have reacted in harmful and possibly even life-threatening ways had they become aware of my past was the only reason why I was able to do so.

While it was quite dangerous and deeply psychologically challenging to be trans at all in that era, I was able to avoid much of that baggage precisely due to having undergone the treatment I did. It certainly wasn't an easier road than the one I would have walked had I not been trans; but it was also a much easier road than the one I would have walked had I not received the treatment I did when I did.

I'm really sorry that it's challenging to contort what I have said into something that superficially appears to support an anti-trans narrative. I see you have resorted to a general mix of claiming I'm lying, or mistaken, or a statistical outlier or otherwise nonrepresentative.

Perhaps it is your belief that if you claim all these things, it will somehow overwhelm or otherwise drown out the truth of what I have actually said.

The conclusion belongs at the end, not the beginning.

I suspect many people can see much here that simply doesn't seem to occur to Hatched about the inconsistencies, the hyperbole and emoting it shows rather clearly. It shows quite clearly what people have commented on for years now.

ButterflyHatched · 26/04/2024 13:48

Helleofabore · 26/04/2024 13:43

I suspect many people can see much here that simply doesn't seem to occur to Hatched about the inconsistencies, the hyperbole and emoting it shows rather clearly. It shows quite clearly what people have commented on for years now.

I will continue to have strong feelings about a treatment that was instrumental in drastically improving my quality of life, yes.

I will continue to be critical of attempts to undermine those who dare to speak about their experiences of this treatment, yes. That includes the use of the same rhetorical techniques you yourself use regularly.

I will continue to correct wilful misrepresentation of what I have said on the subject, yes.

Helleofabore · 26/04/2024 14:01

I don't believe that it is hyperbole, emoting or in anyway inconsistent to point out that a male person with a rare medical condition who transitioned 30 years ago is not an appropriate person to be advising female children and female young people. I think it is rather the opposite of hyperbole and emoting and I think that it is consistent with material reality and good safeguarding practises.

I also think that I have remained very consistent on this.

ButterflyHatched · 26/04/2024 14:42

Drastically altering existing policy to restrict access to a demonstrably effective 30 year old treatment is an issue that affects all current trans children seeking that treatment. You are advocating for doing so while claiming there is a complete lack of evidence despite all the evidence - referenced within the Cass review itself - that does indicate its efficacy as a treatment for those who need it.

The desperation with which trans-hostile groups have leapt upon this bandwagon is telling; the fervour is quite unlike anything else I've seen. I can understand why you are so desperate to prevent more people like me from existing in the world - you know that the window within which your arguments can be taken seriously is steadily shrinking in light of the growing population of us across multiple age ranges. Cass herself admits that this is an effective treatment for the right people, and that while she rightly can't recommend it in general for every young person experiencing gender incongruence, she has made it quite clear that she isn't advocating for it to be completely banned; just carefully controlled and researched more thoroughly in future.

Do you disagree with her?

Helleofabore · 26/04/2024 14:50

ButterflyHatched · 25/04/2024 22:53

Have you read one of his papers before? Actually looked at the language he chooses to employ and the way he frames his arguments? Did you notice anything? He has indeed displayed consistently trans-negative attitudes for a long time and often seems unable to resist letting his biases flow freely.

I would like to see the evidence of these 'trans-negative attitudes', please.

Because the article that was linked up thread that I have linked again here doesn't show this.

https://www.transgendertrend.com/conversion-therapy-gender-identity-survey-analysis/

So, please, start supporting your posts with evidence since you are making serious accusations about an academic here.

'Conversion Therapy' & Gender Identity Survey: an analysis by Michael Biggs

The conversion therapy and gender identity survey report from Stonewall, Mermaids, GIRES et al has little or no scientific value.

https://www.transgendertrend.com/conversion-therapy-gender-identity-survey-analysis/

RedToothBrush · 26/04/2024 14:51

ButterflyHatched · 26/04/2024 14:42

Drastically altering existing policy to restrict access to a demonstrably effective 30 year old treatment is an issue that affects all current trans children seeking that treatment. You are advocating for doing so while claiming there is a complete lack of evidence despite all the evidence - referenced within the Cass review itself - that does indicate its efficacy as a treatment for those who need it.

The desperation with which trans-hostile groups have leapt upon this bandwagon is telling; the fervour is quite unlike anything else I've seen. I can understand why you are so desperate to prevent more people like me from existing in the world - you know that the window within which your arguments can be taken seriously is steadily shrinking in light of the growing population of us across multiple age ranges. Cass herself admits that this is an effective treatment for the right people, and that while she rightly can't recommend it in general for every young person experiencing gender incongruence, she has made it quite clear that she isn't advocating for it to be completely banned; just carefully controlled and researched more thoroughly in future.

Do you disagree with her?

We don't know it's effective.

The number of young women going through treatment has been tiny until very recently.

Why do you repeatedly persist in ignoring and dismissing the existence of young females.

It's almost as if women and girls don't matter to you as long as you get what want.

Which isn't treatment at this stage. It's validation that you weren't experimented on and that everything turned out great in your life.

It's not about anyone else. Cos you can't even be arsed to see them. They are invisible to you because the only thing that matters is you and your experience as 'data'.

Helleofabore · 26/04/2024 14:51

ButterflyHatched · 26/04/2024 14:42

Drastically altering existing policy to restrict access to a demonstrably effective 30 year old treatment is an issue that affects all current trans children seeking that treatment. You are advocating for doing so while claiming there is a complete lack of evidence despite all the evidence - referenced within the Cass review itself - that does indicate its efficacy as a treatment for those who need it.

The desperation with which trans-hostile groups have leapt upon this bandwagon is telling; the fervour is quite unlike anything else I've seen. I can understand why you are so desperate to prevent more people like me from existing in the world - you know that the window within which your arguments can be taken seriously is steadily shrinking in light of the growing population of us across multiple age ranges. Cass herself admits that this is an effective treatment for the right people, and that while she rightly can't recommend it in general for every young person experiencing gender incongruence, she has made it quite clear that she isn't advocating for it to be completely banned; just carefully controlled and researched more thoroughly in future.

Do you disagree with her?

The hyperbole and emotional manipulation in this post is rather off the scale.

EasternStandard · 26/04/2024 14:54

ButterflyHatched · 26/04/2024 14:42

Drastically altering existing policy to restrict access to a demonstrably effective 30 year old treatment is an issue that affects all current trans children seeking that treatment. You are advocating for doing so while claiming there is a complete lack of evidence despite all the evidence - referenced within the Cass review itself - that does indicate its efficacy as a treatment for those who need it.

The desperation with which trans-hostile groups have leapt upon this bandwagon is telling; the fervour is quite unlike anything else I've seen. I can understand why you are so desperate to prevent more people like me from existing in the world - you know that the window within which your arguments can be taken seriously is steadily shrinking in light of the growing population of us across multiple age ranges. Cass herself admits that this is an effective treatment for the right people, and that while she rightly can't recommend it in general for every young person experiencing gender incongruence, she has made it quite clear that she isn't advocating for it to be completely banned; just carefully controlled and researched more thoroughly in future.

Do you disagree with her?

It’s more to do with safeguarding children

Many are pleased with the Cass report, can see stopping puberty blockers is a good thing and that the effect of the report is wide ranging. Not just in England but other countries who are picking up on it.

From a safeguarding perspective that’s all good. It’s not really do so with ‘trans’. Just young people

Helleofabore · 26/04/2024 14:57

Have we reached the schrodinger's evidence bit now with this?

"You are advocating for doing so while claiming there is a complete lack of evidence despite all the evidence - referenced within the Cass review itself - that does indicate its efficacy as a treatment for those who need it."

And again, there are now a growing list of independent world health organisations and research teams who have stated that the evidence for the use of puberty blockers to improve children's lives long term is low. Including the World Health Organisation who changed their guidance earlier this year.

It is remarkable really how the focus has been on Dr Cass, yet, recently even a German research team stated similar findings. And that is just this year!

But this schrodinger's evidence is a bizarre claim.

RedToothBrush · 26/04/2024 15:00

We get It.

You don't value women and girls
You don't respect not value the opinions or life experience of women and girls
You don't appreciate the difficulties that women and girls face because of their sex
You think we should conform to gender stereotypes which are regressive and harm both sexes
You don't respect lesbians
You don't respect academic principles
You don't respect safeguarding.

We hear it loud and clear.

Thank you for demonstrating the problems women and girls face in being listened to on a daily basis so eloquently

Beowulfa · 26/04/2024 15:01

A senior specialist who has spent their working life in a particular field of medicine is asked to undertake a review of current treatment practice. The review takes four years. It concludes that

-the evidence for current treatment pathways is weak, leading to potentially damaging outcomes for vulnerable children.
-long term data is being deliberately withheld; unprecedented unprofessionalism unknown in other areas of medicine.
-the treatment is especially damaging for a particular demographic, cases of which have spiked in recent years.

Now, if the branch of medicine was childhood leukaemia or early onset diabetes would people be threatening the author of the report and briefing MPs to lie in parliament?

Gender treatment can no longer be exempt from the same evidence base, rigourous data reviews and professionalism that apply in all other areas of medicine and science. We are no longer going to treat children on the basis of actors wearing t-shirts with slogans, Billy Bragg retweeting something he doesn't understand and someone on the internet talking about their own personal experience.

Going forwards, teenage boys with slow puberty who hate football might have the chance to find they enjoy non-team sports, that not being aggressively masculine can be an advantage in some activities (like equestrian), that gender non-conforming males have a rich vein of opportunities in the performing arts, that men can bake, or prance around joyously in make-up, sequins and a frilly blouse in some of the UK's most consistently popular TV shows, and that they can spend their lives without restrictive stereotypes, daily medication and irreversible surgery.

Zebracat · 26/04/2024 15:52

I don’t mind if people want to pretend they are the opposite sex. In fact , Old me would have definitely agreed that gender incongruity was a real, if rare occurrence. Not sure if I would ever have been able to support a child of mine being given heavy duty experimental drugs, but maybe I would If it was the Tavi, a very well respected institution.
What really shocked me over the last 10 years was the refusal by TRAs to accept any element of social contagion in the explosion of trans identifying children. Instead, we were told to immediately affirm, to socially transition , to accept blockers and hormones and top and bottom surgery. To ask even the mildest question was condemned as transphobic conversion therapy. Parents lost their children to this. I need to ask you @ButterflyHatched , although I’m aware you may have discussed this before, whether you ever doubted if all these young teens were truly dysphoria, or just jumping on a train? Because I really understand that you feel your struggles were worthwhile, but my adopted daughter is a girl, she was always a girl, but we had some very hairy times before she realised that, and she could have ended up taken from us and in an unlicensed Children's home preyed upon by exploiters. Do you see why that is a worry? Yes, Cass says there may be some children who would benefit from those treatments. I would want those children to have a gold standard service. But the pro trans lobbying and political positioning of the last 10 or 15 years worked against that, I think. Do you agree?

MagicSpring · 26/04/2024 15:54

that not being aggressively masculine can be an advantage in some activities (like equestrian), that gender non-conforming males have a rich vein of opportunities in the performing arts

That hit home. My small, pretty, fey boy child 'wished he was a girl' at ages 11 to 12. He mentioned suicide, truanted from school and suffered from bullying and furious outbursts. Instead of changing his gender, we changed his school to one with a lot less football and a lot more drama and performing arts, and he took up dance and gymnastics. He grew into himself in ways that didn't involve medication or surgery.

He might, for all that, turn out to be a late transitioner -- who knows? He could certainly do the whole 'I wore tutus and sparkles as a three year old' schtick, like many others. But at least his bone density and IQ should be unaffected.

ButterflyHatched · 26/04/2024 16:08

Zebracat · 26/04/2024 15:52

I don’t mind if people want to pretend they are the opposite sex. In fact , Old me would have definitely agreed that gender incongruity was a real, if rare occurrence. Not sure if I would ever have been able to support a child of mine being given heavy duty experimental drugs, but maybe I would If it was the Tavi, a very well respected institution.
What really shocked me over the last 10 years was the refusal by TRAs to accept any element of social contagion in the explosion of trans identifying children. Instead, we were told to immediately affirm, to socially transition , to accept blockers and hormones and top and bottom surgery. To ask even the mildest question was condemned as transphobic conversion therapy. Parents lost their children to this. I need to ask you @ButterflyHatched , although I’m aware you may have discussed this before, whether you ever doubted if all these young teens were truly dysphoria, or just jumping on a train? Because I really understand that you feel your struggles were worthwhile, but my adopted daughter is a girl, she was always a girl, but we had some very hairy times before she realised that, and she could have ended up taken from us and in an unlicensed Children's home preyed upon by exploiters. Do you see why that is a worry? Yes, Cass says there may be some children who would benefit from those treatments. I would want those children to have a gold standard service. But the pro trans lobbying and political positioning of the last 10 or 15 years worked against that, I think. Do you agree?

It's not my place to decide whether someone is Trans Enough or not. I know that consistent, intense gender dysphoria throughout my childhood was a strong enough foundation to inform a treatment pathway that turned out to be correct in my case. It's the job of (multiple) care providers to assess and make recommendations based on the result of those assessments.

I want those children to have a gold standard service as well. I think it's inappropriate to blame the people who have been tirelessly working to improve the state of healthcare for gender incongruent children since long before it became a culture war issue for the rising tide of highly polarised and sensationalised rhetoric that has contributed toward a climate where it is nigh-impossible to discuss the subject.

I very much agree that we need to de-escalate the climate surrounding this subject and ensure that young people's needs are met. This doesn't mean falling to toxic 'both sides' dad centrism, however; rather, acting in line with a combination of existing expert concensus and ongoing research findings.

Beowulfa · 26/04/2024 16:09

I'm glad your son found sports he enjoyed, MagicSpring. I am in awe of gymnasts; what they do physically and their mental focus.

I've always said that shy teenage lads should become Saturday helpers at their local riding stables and be quietly efficient at all the dirty jobs. They'll become used to hanging out with, and appreciated by girls in a way the lairy football geezers won't.

MagicKittens · 26/04/2024 16:23

Beowulfa · 26/04/2024 16:09

I'm glad your son found sports he enjoyed, MagicSpring. I am in awe of gymnasts; what they do physically and their mental focus.

I've always said that shy teenage lads should become Saturday helpers at their local riding stables and be quietly efficient at all the dirty jobs. They'll become used to hanging out with, and appreciated by girls in a way the lairy football geezers won't.

Funnily enough he took to riding too, when he got the chance! And windsurfing, skating and snowboarding, come to think of it. Anything involving good balance and not having a ball kicked at your spectacles.

He started too late to reach real excellence in any of them, but it kept all that fizzing energy channelled into healthy directions.

MagicKittens · 26/04/2024 16:24

Sorry, name changed and confused myself!

Zebracat · 26/04/2024 16:41

Ok but there is a disconnect between you saying, it worked for me because my distress was very great, so they were risks worth taking, and it’s not for me to decide if someone is trans enough. Apparently the Tavistock never said to patients, you are not transgender, so it wasnt for them either, and it certainly wasn’t for parents or schools. The Exeter research seems to be that young women were seeking gender reassignment without much history of gender incongruence, but with many co morbidities, but it didn't disqualify them. So that leaves self Id, egged on by Stonewall, Mermaids, Reddit and TikTok, whether you are a 50 year old father of 3 , an 11 year old with an IQ of 80, or an 18 year old with a history of mental illness, abuse, trauma and Care .
Bit scary, but maybe that’s just me, never having experienced trans affirmation, joy, euphoria etc. I have however, been able to orgasm and reproduce, so I suppose it’s horses for courses.

BonfireLady · 26/04/2024 17:09

ButterflyHatched · 26/04/2024 16:08

It's not my place to decide whether someone is Trans Enough or not. I know that consistent, intense gender dysphoria throughout my childhood was a strong enough foundation to inform a treatment pathway that turned out to be correct in my case. It's the job of (multiple) care providers to assess and make recommendations based on the result of those assessments.

I want those children to have a gold standard service as well. I think it's inappropriate to blame the people who have been tirelessly working to improve the state of healthcare for gender incongruent children since long before it became a culture war issue for the rising tide of highly polarised and sensationalised rhetoric that has contributed toward a climate where it is nigh-impossible to discuss the subject.

I very much agree that we need to de-escalate the climate surrounding this subject and ensure that young people's needs are met. This doesn't mean falling to toxic 'both sides' dad centrism, however; rather, acting in line with a combination of existing expert concensus and ongoing research findings.

It's good to hear that there is common ground that distressed children and young people deserve a "gold standard" of care. However, I second the above comments that it's impossible for a transwoman's experience from many years ago to inform what care for distressed adolescent girls should look like today. The reasons for desiring transition to address distress are completely different: adolescent girls will never be either a) young boys who prefer dresses and are told to wear trousers (by contrast, many young girls don't wear dresses because they prefer trousers - it's sad that society treats boys differently in this way) nor b) autogynophilic males who experience sexual desire when thinking of themselves as women. The experiences of girls are completely different.

I very much agree that we need to de-escalate the climate surrounding this subject and ensure that young people's needs are met. This doesn't mean falling to toxic 'both sides' dad centrism, however; rather, acting in line with a combination of existing expert concensus and ongoing research findings.

I don't know what "dad centrism" means but otherwise, this sounds sensible. However, it's really not "both sides" when it comes to toxicity. There is a world of difference in women pointing out the well-known "gender dysphoria and daily affirmation" phrase on here - and holding you to account for it's unnecessary use (surely it would have been better to pick a different phrase, no?) - and the verbal and physical threats that women and (both male and female) medical professionals face simply for advocating for sex-based rights, like women's sports, and calling for evidence based care for children.

Expert current consensus exists: the Cass Report is the most up to date example.