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39
Ingenieur · 26/04/2024 10:13

@Helleofabore

However, your turn around of exam results can be put down to many things.

Absolutely. There are so many interrelated and complex interractions at play that to decide it was due to transition alone is just asinine.

There are plenty of examples just within medicine that make this clear. The placebo effect is wild and fascinating. The reason adherents claim that homeopathy works isn't because of the drugs, it's the positive feeling of having a doctor affirm their malady, spend time giving them attention, then giving them a goal (the course of "treatment").

Kids who feel isolated and misunderstood can't help but feel this rush of positivity and ascribe it to the treatment, when in fact it's the process of having an adult give you positive attention that is the most obvious, and evidenced, cause.

Helleofabore · 26/04/2024 10:18

NotBadConsidering · 26/04/2024 09:08

Is Butterfly “Sword of Damocles” Hatched still claiming to be an example of a “thriving” puberty blocked adult even though BH was blocked late and has a myriad of health conditions in their early 40s and is currently on another thread talking about how it was “absolutely terrifying” living in stealth surrounded by “bigots” worried they’d find out about BH’s past?

Ok.

Yes. Those inconsistencies keep playing out in threads, don’t they?

Datun · 26/04/2024 11:16

I also want to point out that butters claims to advise young people. And also thinks that young people should advise each other.

And the trans men who transitioned young and are now in a position to advise others seeking to walk the same path about their experiences?

When Butters, a grown adult with decades of experience, own description of a gender identity is

... hard to discretely define a female gender identity in the way I experience it. It's like...a constellation of statistically linked elements that together describe something almost intangible and linguistically elusive

And that preferring the company of girls and not liking football lad culture could suggest that something is wrong with a boy.

It's true that having female friends and fiercely disliking football lad culture aren't something I'd consider to be indicators that someone is a trans girl, but they were unusual enough at the time that they helped generate a sense that something was up.

Ffs. No one can be any doubt as to why Hilary Cass found so many studies to be so poor and lacking evidence.

NotBadConsidering · 26/04/2024 11:17

The way I see it, @ButterflyHatched is that you come across as a deeply unhappy individual. You spend time here flip flopping between “things are/were terrible!” and “my life is amazing!” I don’t think you’re arguing with us; I think you’re essentially arguing with yourself. You’re trying to justify the last 25 years of your life out loud and we are just your sounding board. If you were truly happy you wouldn’t spend your time here telling us all your woes, then pretending they aren’t woes.

You have probably had your thought processes and ideology challenged more in the last three years of your life than you did in the preceding twenty and you still can’t decide and clearly tell us if you’ve had a happy healthy life or a life of living in fear with health problems. I suspect that is because you’re terrified of admitting your life, or parts of your life, are shit, because that means we are right about so many things and people on contrasting sides of internet debates don’t like to lose face and admit error.

From what I have inferred, if your posts are true, you were probably the first child/adolescent puberty blocked in the UK, while it was still being developed in the Netherlands. You desperately need it to be true that it helps because you were experimented on before the experiment was even fully up and running. You don’t seem to have developed any body acceptance, because you tell us, then deny, that your body has problems. Given you can’t consistently accept and admit that medical transition has left your body in a poor state of health, it indicates to me that you still live in a state of denial about your body.

You desperately need it to be true that you would have been worse off had you not pursued this pathway, because you’re clearly not in a healthy state now. Without the truth you seek of medical affirmation being beneficial, you’re left with an unhealthy body that was all for nothing.

If you had Russell Viner sat opposite you for an hour, what would you honestly tell him? That it was worth it? That the health problems you have and a worthy price to pay? Would you ask him if he thought it through all those years ago, what it would mean for the health of people like you at your stage of your life? Would you be honest with him or would you pretend it was all rosy like you try here?

I recommend you find yourself a really good therapist. Someone non-judgemental, someone perhaps with an expertise in body dysmorphia, who could help you properly rationalise your experiences: the truth, the reality, what has helped, what honestly hasn’t, and focusing on yourself rather than your persistent attempts to apply your own logical fallacies to other children. All your posts do for me is indicate what decades of failure to work on body acceptance looks like and reinforces my belief that medical affirmation without any therapeutic approach to body acceptance leaves people still living in denial decades later. You’re a walking, regular posting advert for all that is wrong with medical affirmation, because if medical affirmation was so great, your narrative would be consistent and grounded in reality. All medical affirmation seems to have done for you is kick the body acceptance can down the road. A very long road.

I don’t want this cohort of children to end up the same: bodies ruined, still believing false beliefs about themselves, living precariously decade to decade. You could be helping this generation by grounding them in reality. You could describe the problems you have openly and admit there have been negatives. Instead you seem determined to not only to lie to this current generation about what you have been through, but also extrapolate that onto the subset of this generation who will be puberty blocked earlier than you were who will undoubtedly suffer worse long term effects because of that earlier blockade and extrapolate it onto girls with whom you share absolutely zero experience. As a result of these last two things, I have zero sympathy for you.

Stop pretending to yourself and the rest of us medical transition is a miracle. Stop lying about evidence. Most of all, stop lying to this cohort of children.

GailBlancheViola · 26/04/2024 11:28

And the trans men who transitioned young and are now in a position to advise others seeking to walk the same path about their experiences?

Where are these many trans men who would be heading towards middle aged? Where is the cohort of late transitioning females who transition after they have had family, a career, etc., like the many, many, many, late transitioning males that we see now?

ButterflyHatched · 26/04/2024 11:44

Ingenieur · 26/04/2024 10:13

@Helleofabore

However, your turn around of exam results can be put down to many things.

Absolutely. There are so many interrelated and complex interractions at play that to decide it was due to transition alone is just asinine.

There are plenty of examples just within medicine that make this clear. The placebo effect is wild and fascinating. The reason adherents claim that homeopathy works isn't because of the drugs, it's the positive feeling of having a doctor affirm their malady, spend time giving them attention, then giving them a goal (the course of "treatment").

Kids who feel isolated and misunderstood can't help but feel this rush of positivity and ascribe it to the treatment, when in fact it's the process of having an adult give you positive attention that is the most obvious, and evidenced, cause.

I never claimed it was.

I simply stated that I started performing significantly better academically after I had made meaningful progress in my transition, which is an unexpected outcome if Blockers do in fact impair intelligence.

Helleofabore · 26/04/2024 11:45

Datun · 26/04/2024 11:16

I also want to point out that butters claims to advise young people. And also thinks that young people should advise each other.

And the trans men who transitioned young and are now in a position to advise others seeking to walk the same path about their experiences?

When Butters, a grown adult with decades of experience, own description of a gender identity is

... hard to discretely define a female gender identity in the way I experience it. It's like...a constellation of statistically linked elements that together describe something almost intangible and linguistically elusive

And that preferring the company of girls and not liking football lad culture could suggest that something is wrong with a boy.

It's true that having female friends and fiercely disliking football lad culture aren't something I'd consider to be indicators that someone is a trans girl, but they were unusual enough at the time that they helped generate a sense that something was up.

Ffs. No one can be any doubt as to why Hilary Cass found so many studies to be so poor and lacking evidence.

Thanks Datun!

I always love seeing this one:

... hard to discretely define a female gender identity in the way I experience it. It's like...a constellation of statistically linked elements that together describe something almost intangible and linguistically elusive.

I remember how hard Hatched tried to make this a plausible definition. However, which ever way you look at it, it is fucking misogynistic.

And totally reliant on stereotypes and the allocation of how someone is expected to behave and think to a sexed category. Rather than it being about how a person interacts with their owned sexed body in their life and within society and that person can act and present however they wish with that body. Which I believe is where Hatched 'essentialist' label is applied.

ButterflyHatched · 26/04/2024 11:48

OldCrone · 26/04/2024 06:57

Have you read this? Published earlier this year. No paywall, so you can read the whole thing.

The impact of suppressing puberty on neuropsychological function: A review

From one of the studies in which these drugs were given to children with precocious puberty:

While the average loss of IQ points was 7, it is noteworthy that at least one patient in this study experienced a significant loss of 15 points or more, since the highest IQ score in the group was 138 at baseline and this dropped to 123 following treatment.

And nobody has suggested that you would have been an "intellectual powerhouse". These drugs have been given to children of all abilities. This is from a case study of a child given these drugs for gender dysphoria:

On admission, at the age of 11 years and 10 months, the patient was assessed to have a global IQ of 80. Treatment with GnRHa was instigated at age 11 years, 11 months. The patient was reassessed age 13 and 3 months, at which time, a loss of 9 IQ points had occurred, and the IQ had dropped to 71.

What is surprising here is that the doctors believed that an 11-year-old with an IQ of 80 was competent to consent to this treatment.

Show quote history

This the Baxendale paper? I'm aware of it yes. And I believe that you have quoted a reference to the infamous nonrepresentative single patient low IQ study as well! Bingo!

Helleofabore · 26/04/2024 11:51

ButterflyHatched · 26/04/2024 11:44

I never claimed it was.

I simply stated that I started performing significantly better academically after I had made meaningful progress in my transition, which is an unexpected outcome if Blockers do in fact impair intelligence.

Show quote history

"I had made meaningful progress in my transition, which is an unexpected outcome if Blockers do in fact impair intelligence."

How many times do we have to point out that this statement is false for quite a number of different reasons? You seem to lack to the ability to understand intelligence vs academic performance in exams.

OldCrone · 26/04/2024 11:54

ButterflyHatched · 26/04/2024 11:48

This the Baxendale paper? I'm aware of it yes. And I believe that you have quoted a reference to the infamous nonrepresentative single patient low IQ study as well! Bingo!

Show quote history

Yes, I said it was a case study of a [single] child, and that I was surprised that an 11-year-old child with an IQ of 80 was considered by doctors to be capable of consent to these life-changing drugs.

RedToothBrush · 26/04/2024 12:06

NotBadConsidering · 26/04/2024 11:17

The way I see it, @ButterflyHatched is that you come across as a deeply unhappy individual. You spend time here flip flopping between “things are/were terrible!” and “my life is amazing!” I don’t think you’re arguing with us; I think you’re essentially arguing with yourself. You’re trying to justify the last 25 years of your life out loud and we are just your sounding board. If you were truly happy you wouldn’t spend your time here telling us all your woes, then pretending they aren’t woes.

You have probably had your thought processes and ideology challenged more in the last three years of your life than you did in the preceding twenty and you still can’t decide and clearly tell us if you’ve had a happy healthy life or a life of living in fear with health problems. I suspect that is because you’re terrified of admitting your life, or parts of your life, are shit, because that means we are right about so many things and people on contrasting sides of internet debates don’t like to lose face and admit error.

From what I have inferred, if your posts are true, you were probably the first child/adolescent puberty blocked in the UK, while it was still being developed in the Netherlands. You desperately need it to be true that it helps because you were experimented on before the experiment was even fully up and running. You don’t seem to have developed any body acceptance, because you tell us, then deny, that your body has problems. Given you can’t consistently accept and admit that medical transition has left your body in a poor state of health, it indicates to me that you still live in a state of denial about your body.

You desperately need it to be true that you would have been worse off had you not pursued this pathway, because you’re clearly not in a healthy state now. Without the truth you seek of medical affirmation being beneficial, you’re left with an unhealthy body that was all for nothing.

If you had Russell Viner sat opposite you for an hour, what would you honestly tell him? That it was worth it? That the health problems you have and a worthy price to pay? Would you ask him if he thought it through all those years ago, what it would mean for the health of people like you at your stage of your life? Would you be honest with him or would you pretend it was all rosy like you try here?

I recommend you find yourself a really good therapist. Someone non-judgemental, someone perhaps with an expertise in body dysmorphia, who could help you properly rationalise your experiences: the truth, the reality, what has helped, what honestly hasn’t, and focusing on yourself rather than your persistent attempts to apply your own logical fallacies to other children. All your posts do for me is indicate what decades of failure to work on body acceptance looks like and reinforces my belief that medical affirmation without any therapeutic approach to body acceptance leaves people still living in denial decades later. You’re a walking, regular posting advert for all that is wrong with medical affirmation, because if medical affirmation was so great, your narrative would be consistent and grounded in reality. All medical affirmation seems to have done for you is kick the body acceptance can down the road. A very long road.

I don’t want this cohort of children to end up the same: bodies ruined, still believing false beliefs about themselves, living precariously decade to decade. You could be helping this generation by grounding them in reality. You could describe the problems you have openly and admit there have been negatives. Instead you seem determined to not only to lie to this current generation about what you have been through, but also extrapolate that onto the subset of this generation who will be puberty blocked earlier than you were who will undoubtedly suffer worse long term effects because of that earlier blockade and extrapolate it onto girls with whom you share absolutely zero experience. As a result of these last two things, I have zero sympathy for you.

Stop pretending to yourself and the rest of us medical transition is a miracle. Stop lying about evidence. Most of all, stop lying to this cohort of children.

OOOOoooo Nail it.

This. Totally.

Thats why Butters has to revert to the script and attacking Cass both personally and professionally for not being evidence based medicine whilst supplying a lifestory of a male as a good example of success in the context of a cohort of young females. Afterall experiences which are negative have to be worthwhile for something not just because someone was incompetent / negligent / unethical.

To face reality head on, would cause the world Butters has created to collapse.

Unfortunately this created world is completely at odds with the real world which is what evidence based medicine and the observations of Cass about a hetergeneous cohort.

RethinkingLife · 26/04/2024 12:10

BH - If you think about manipulating the levers of influence that are available to you, rather than composing extensive posts on MN, might it be more personally satisfying to you and more likely to achieve whatever it is you wish to achieve to write to

  • Cass (you had the opportunity for 4 years)
  • Bell (David)
  • Biggs
  • notable researchers to comment on their study design or protocol for a review
  • journals to submit a letter with your critique of some studies
  • personnel on the York team that conducted the systematic reviews?
Corrine Fowler engaged with some of those who accepted what others had written about her review without ever reading it themselves. That might be a useful strategy that you might consider.

https://archive.is/jJQ9M

On a different note, you might contact people with podcasts and offer yourself as an interviewee (no need to announce it here because it would link to who you are IRL). You may have already done this but there seem to be a lot of LGBTQ+ podcasts and it would seem that you would have a convivial discussion with them .

You could be the change (whatever that is) that you want to see in the world.

RedToothBrush · 26/04/2024 12:13

OldCrone · 26/04/2024 11:54

Yes, I said it was a case study of a [single] child, and that I was surprised that an 11-year-old child with an IQ of 80 was considered by doctors to be capable of consent to these life-changing drugs.

Show quote history

Not a fucking chance.

DH and I have been talking about an autistic child we know who is now in his teens. Hes a son of close friends. Its kinda heartbreaking to see because his emotional development just looks like its stalled at Yr6 (his friends keep getting younger and he's further and further from his peer group). We are wondering how it possibly can pan out for him at this stage or whether he'll suddenly develop and mature. Unfortunately (or fortunately) he remains totally oblivious to a huge amount around him.

Could he consent to long term consequences that gender transition brings? Absoluetely not. I believe he has got a higher IQ than 80. Hes not clever but hes also not that level of behind either. His issue is his Emotional Intelligence rather than his IQ.

He's absoluetely not gillick yet.

ButterflyHatched · 26/04/2024 12:19

RethinkingLife · 26/04/2024 12:10

BH - If you think about manipulating the levers of influence that are available to you, rather than composing extensive posts on MN, might it be more personally satisfying to you and more likely to achieve whatever it is you wish to achieve to write to

  • Cass (you had the opportunity for 4 years)
  • Bell (David)
  • Biggs
  • notable researchers to comment on their study design or protocol for a review
  • journals to submit a letter with your critique of some studies
  • personnel on the York team that conducted the systematic reviews?
Corrine Fowler engaged with some of those who accepted what others had written about her review without ever reading it themselves. That might be a useful strategy that you might consider.

https://archive.is/jJQ9M

On a different note, you might contact people with podcasts and offer yourself as an interviewee (no need to announce it here because it would link to who you are IRL). You may have already done this but there seem to be a lot of LGBTQ+ podcasts and it would seem that you would have a convivial discussion with them .

You could be the change (whatever that is) that you want to see in the world.

Edited

I'm not going to be drawn into revealing who I may or may not have already been in contact with, sorry.

NotBadConsidering · 26/04/2024 12:21

No child can consent, regardless of IQ. I have intelligent, precocious children and none of them could understand the loss of a future sex life, particularly at the ages of 11-12, because none of them have any really concept of what it entails, outside of the sex Ed facts.

Gillick requires a child to be competent to understand the specific question being asked, it’s not a stage to be reached where a child understands everything. A child can be Gillick competent and understanding the need to get their appendix out or they’ll die and not be Gillick competent about the true implications of puberty blockers.

And to be Gillick competent about puberty blockers, you have to be fully understanding of everything about puberty blockers. Not just “my boobs won’t grow”.

ButterflyHatched · 26/04/2024 12:22

Helleofabore · 26/04/2024 11:51

"I had made meaningful progress in my transition, which is an unexpected outcome if Blockers do in fact impair intelligence."

How many times do we have to point out that this statement is false for quite a number of different reasons? You seem to lack to the ability to understand intelligence vs academic performance in exams.

Show quote history

Are you deliberately missing the point?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 26/04/2024 12:23

I'm not going to be drawn into revealing who I may or may not have already been in contact with, sorry.

No one is asking. It's a list of suggestions. Everyone reading is going to assume that you haven't actually been in contact with any of them if you won't discuss them.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 26/04/2024 12:24

Great posts @NotBadConsidering

MrsOvertonsWindow · 26/04/2024 12:27

NotBadConsidering · 26/04/2024 12:21

No child can consent, regardless of IQ. I have intelligent, precocious children and none of them could understand the loss of a future sex life, particularly at the ages of 11-12, because none of them have any really concept of what it entails, outside of the sex Ed facts.

Gillick requires a child to be competent to understand the specific question being asked, it’s not a stage to be reached where a child understands everything. A child can be Gillick competent and understanding the need to get their appendix out or they’ll die and not be Gillick competent about the true implications of puberty blockers.

And to be Gillick competent about puberty blockers, you have to be fully understanding of everything about puberty blockers. Not just “my boobs won’t grow”.

Excellent post. It's shameful that Gillick has been so misunderstood and misused to persuade parents, society at large and individual children that they are able to consent to loss of future fertility, sexual function, limiting future relationships and becoming a medical patient for life. Not to mention diagnostic overshadowing that leaves untreated serious mental health problems.

Children must be at the centre of this - not adults seeking their own validation at the expense of children & young people.

RethinkingLife · 26/04/2024 12:40

BH: I'm not going to be drawn into revealing who I may or may not have already been in contact with, sorry.

I didn't ask you to reveal that information. However, now you've mentioned it in those terms, it might explain what comes across as a personal animus about several of those people.

Your version of your history must be powerful as a case study if there is documentation. Your history, from your various re-tellings, is so distinctive that I can understand why it wouldn't be quoted within a review but I would expect someone to have mentioned Viner's work had

  • anticipated that of the creators of the Dutch Protocol
  • retrospectively revealed a road not taken.

I'd be surprised if none of your original clinicians is still alive, albeit retired. Those clinicians might have offered to speak about their 'careful, considerate care' of you at the recent CAN-SG. I should think GenSpect might welcome one or more as a speaker.

I should think Gender: A Wider Lens might welcome you as a podcast interviewee and may well be amenable to upfront agreement of terms of the interview that wouldn't reveal your history with Viner although that might be difficult to tack around.

Helleofabore · 26/04/2024 12:51

ButterflyHatched · 26/04/2024 12:22

Are you deliberately missing the point?

Show quote history

er no.

I don’t think that you understand the point you are attempting to make is not supported by your anecdote. I don’t believe you understand the point I am making.

ButterflyHatched · 26/04/2024 13:01

NotBadConsidering · 26/04/2024 11:17

The way I see it, @ButterflyHatched is that you come across as a deeply unhappy individual. You spend time here flip flopping between “things are/were terrible!” and “my life is amazing!” I don’t think you’re arguing with us; I think you’re essentially arguing with yourself. You’re trying to justify the last 25 years of your life out loud and we are just your sounding board. If you were truly happy you wouldn’t spend your time here telling us all your woes, then pretending they aren’t woes.

You have probably had your thought processes and ideology challenged more in the last three years of your life than you did in the preceding twenty and you still can’t decide and clearly tell us if you’ve had a happy healthy life or a life of living in fear with health problems. I suspect that is because you’re terrified of admitting your life, or parts of your life, are shit, because that means we are right about so many things and people on contrasting sides of internet debates don’t like to lose face and admit error.

From what I have inferred, if your posts are true, you were probably the first child/adolescent puberty blocked in the UK, while it was still being developed in the Netherlands. You desperately need it to be true that it helps because you were experimented on before the experiment was even fully up and running. You don’t seem to have developed any body acceptance, because you tell us, then deny, that your body has problems. Given you can’t consistently accept and admit that medical transition has left your body in a poor state of health, it indicates to me that you still live in a state of denial about your body.

You desperately need it to be true that you would have been worse off had you not pursued this pathway, because you’re clearly not in a healthy state now. Without the truth you seek of medical affirmation being beneficial, you’re left with an unhealthy body that was all for nothing.

If you had Russell Viner sat opposite you for an hour, what would you honestly tell him? That it was worth it? That the health problems you have and a worthy price to pay? Would you ask him if he thought it through all those years ago, what it would mean for the health of people like you at your stage of your life? Would you be honest with him or would you pretend it was all rosy like you try here?

I recommend you find yourself a really good therapist. Someone non-judgemental, someone perhaps with an expertise in body dysmorphia, who could help you properly rationalise your experiences: the truth, the reality, what has helped, what honestly hasn’t, and focusing on yourself rather than your persistent attempts to apply your own logical fallacies to other children. All your posts do for me is indicate what decades of failure to work on body acceptance looks like and reinforces my belief that medical affirmation without any therapeutic approach to body acceptance leaves people still living in denial decades later. You’re a walking, regular posting advert for all that is wrong with medical affirmation, because if medical affirmation was so great, your narrative would be consistent and grounded in reality. All medical affirmation seems to have done for you is kick the body acceptance can down the road. A very long road.

I don’t want this cohort of children to end up the same: bodies ruined, still believing false beliefs about themselves, living precariously decade to decade. You could be helping this generation by grounding them in reality. You could describe the problems you have openly and admit there have been negatives. Instead you seem determined to not only to lie to this current generation about what you have been through, but also extrapolate that onto the subset of this generation who will be puberty blocked earlier than you were who will undoubtedly suffer worse long term effects because of that earlier blockade and extrapolate it onto girls with whom you share absolutely zero experience. As a result of these last two things, I have zero sympathy for you.

Stop pretending to yourself and the rest of us medical transition is a miracle. Stop lying about evidence. Most of all, stop lying to this cohort of children.

Aw thanks for the assessment there. Now we have established that the only possible reason my ticking detransition time-bomb hasn't exploded yet is that I'm kicking the body acceptance can down the road; that I'm cognitively impaired and captured by trans ideology, and just need to find a good conversion therapist to convince me that actually the last two and a half decades of gender euphoria and daily affirmation were just something I hallucinated, I feel suitably prepared to begin my new life.

I was early, but I was nowhere near the first. I don't know where you are getting that assumption from?

If I had Russel Viner in front of me I would thank him profusely for (eventually) authorising me to embark on an experimental treatment pathway (after clearly informing me of known side effects and implications) that very few people had the chance to take advantage of. It is hard to overstate the positive effect it has had on my life.

I'm not pretending medical transition is a miracle. I'm giving a frank account of what it is like from the frame of reference of someone who has gone through it and is now able to provide a long-term outcome retrospective. If I wanted to pretend it was a miracle, why would I have described it, warts and all, in the way I have with all its associated complexities?

Why would I have elaborated (sometimes to the point of potentially dangerous oversharing - I'm wary that a bad actor with access to the relevant records might be approaching the point of being able to identify me at this point) on the specifics of my own journey and its quirks?

Lives are complex and can simultaneously have positive and negative elements. Mine used to be quite stressful and dangerous, especially early in my transition, once I had gone full stealth and was regularly operating in trans-hostile environments. The fact that I was always correctly gendered by people who would have reacted in harmful and possibly even life-threatening ways had they become aware of my past was the only reason why I was able to do so.

While it was quite dangerous and deeply psychologically challenging to be trans at all in that era, I was able to avoid much of that baggage precisely due to having undergone the treatment I did. It certainly wasn't an easier road than the one I would have walked had I not been trans; but it was also a much easier road than the one I would have walked had I not received the treatment I did when I did.

I'm really sorry that it's challenging to contort what I have said into something that superficially appears to support an anti-trans narrative. I see you have resorted to a general mix of claiming I'm lying, or mistaken, or a statistical outlier or otherwise nonrepresentative.

Perhaps it is your belief that if you claim all these things, it will somehow overwhelm or otherwise drown out the truth of what I have actually said.

The conclusion belongs at the end, not the beginning.

RedToothBrush · 26/04/2024 13:09

ButterflyHatched · 26/04/2024 13:01

Aw thanks for the assessment there. Now we have established that the only possible reason my ticking detransition time-bomb hasn't exploded yet is that I'm kicking the body acceptance can down the road; that I'm cognitively impaired and captured by trans ideology, and just need to find a good conversion therapist to convince me that actually the last two and a half decades of gender euphoria and daily affirmation were just something I hallucinated, I feel suitably prepared to begin my new life.

I was early, but I was nowhere near the first. I don't know where you are getting that assumption from?

If I had Russel Viner in front of me I would thank him profusely for (eventually) authorising me to embark on an experimental treatment pathway (after clearly informing me of known side effects and implications) that very few people had the chance to take advantage of. It is hard to overstate the positive effect it has had on my life.

I'm not pretending medical transition is a miracle. I'm giving a frank account of what it is like from the frame of reference of someone who has gone through it and is now able to provide a long-term outcome retrospective. If I wanted to pretend it was a miracle, why would I have described it, warts and all, in the way I have with all its associated complexities?

Why would I have elaborated (sometimes to the point of potentially dangerous oversharing - I'm wary that a bad actor with access to the relevant records might be approaching the point of being able to identify me at this point) on the specifics of my own journey and its quirks?

Lives are complex and can simultaneously have positive and negative elements. Mine used to be quite stressful and dangerous, especially early in my transition, once I had gone full stealth and was regularly operating in trans-hostile environments. The fact that I was always correctly gendered by people who would have reacted in harmful and possibly even life-threatening ways had they become aware of my past was the only reason why I was able to do so.

While it was quite dangerous and deeply psychologically challenging to be trans at all in that era, I was able to avoid much of that baggage precisely due to having undergone the treatment I did. It certainly wasn't an easier road than the one I would have walked had I not been trans; but it was also a much easier road than the one I would have walked had I not received the treatment I did when I did.

I'm really sorry that it's challenging to contort what I have said into something that superficially appears to support an anti-trans narrative. I see you have resorted to a general mix of claiming I'm lying, or mistaken, or a statistical outlier or otherwise nonrepresentative.

Perhaps it is your belief that if you claim all these things, it will somehow overwhelm or otherwise drown out the truth of what I have actually said.

The conclusion belongs at the end, not the beginning.

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So you believe that evidence based medicine is not an ancedote on MN and that you are not relevant to the experiences of young females then?

Or are you just trying to repeat the same stuff to up hold your beliefs rather than comprehend that Cass is following reputable, high quality practice to eliminate issues like more vulnerable patients being lost due to poor data keeping and follow up, possible abuse of young people, homophobia, sexism and yes cultish behaviour? And that Dr Cass is a respected specialist in children's care and safeguarding.

But above all else - Its Not All About You?

Cos every single time you post, you make it all about you. Which is kinda strange if theres not a weird psychological issue going on there which prevents you from seeing this from ANY other position other than everyone being EXACTLY like you.

Right O.

GailBlancheViola · 26/04/2024 13:12

gender euphoria and daily affirmation

Says it all.