Hilary Cass Interview in the Times

[Igneococcus]

Depressing that she doesn't feel safe in public anymore:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/3121a27a-fd54-46d9-894a-f715de429675?shareToken=323bde6f9666d56951b1eb073ded85b1

@RedToothBrush I think that we are arguing from the same end of the bathtub. Women get the tub when the men are finished.

After all these repetitious interactions, I am not struggling at all. The misogyny and disregard for others while centring themselves is a feature not a bug. How many entitled male posters have we had that have followed the same script. There is even an AMA from a male poster in the other feminist board. Pretty much the same script as all the others.

Bewilderness originally only had 10 or 12 rules of misogyny (I forget which it was). When I repost them on MN (which I do fairly frequently), I've been in the habit of not including the more recent additions.

I think perhaps I will revise that habit and ensure 17 is copied and pasted every time.

1. Women are responsible for what men do.
2. Women saying no to men is a hate crime.
3. Women speaking for themselves are exclusionary and selfish.
4. Women’s opinions are violence against men, thus male violence against women is justified.
5. Women and Feminism must be useful to men or they are worthless.
6. Women who go around being female AT men by menstruating and breastfeeding babies deserve punishment.
7. Women should always be grateful to men for everything.
8. Men are whatever men say they are and women are whatever men say they are.
9. Men always know the “real reasons” for everything women do and say.
10. The worst thing about male violence is that it makes men look bad.
11. Whatever women suffer from, it is worse when it happens to men.
12. Women’s ability to recognize male behavior patterns is misandry.
13. Angry women are crazy. Angry men have trouble expressing themselves.
14. Women have all the rights they need: The right to remain silent.
15. Men are the default human. Women are strange subhuman others.
16. Everyone owns and controls women’s bodies except the women themselves.
17. Men are better at performing femininity than women are because they invented it and it gives them a boner.

Good grief. Is there some hidden alternative meaning of the word euphoria that I am unaware of? I am using it as the antonym of dysphoria; to mean happiness. It makes me happy and affirmed to be correctly perceived in social situations. I spend all week in a range of these, both in and out of work. I'm thus very, very rarely unhappy. Whenever something gets me down, I remind myself of how things used to be; that life could always be a lot worse! It really helps to contextualise issues.

Why are you straining so hard to try and conjure a sinister interpretation of the joy of being socially accepted and feeling relatively comfortable and safe while being true to yourself and living your best life?

ButterflyHatched:

I'm thus very, very rarely unhappy

also ButterflyHatched:

It is almost unrelentingly grim and miserable, in fact, and a source of not insignificant psychological strain.

The suggestion on the other thread of support services for those struggling with the latter would be preferable.

Gender dysphoria shouldn’t require society to restructure, those services sound useful

Euphoria doesn't just mean happiness as you should well know. These are words forming part of the mental health diagnostic lexicon (which is why they are used when discussing gender identity issues). It is part of the pleasure/ reward centres in the brain.

Euphoria is noted in the DSM as a diagnostic criterion for a number of conditions, including affective disorders, bipolar disorder and especially mania.

Quoting from wikipedia (as it's readily available for anyone else to read):

Euphoria is the experience (or affect) of pleasure or excitement and intense feelings of well-being and happiness.

Romantic love and components of the human sexual response cycle are also associated with the induction of euphoria.

Certain drugs, many of which are addictive, can cause euphoria, which at least partially motivates their recreational use

Affective disorders such as unipolar mania or bipolar disorder can involve euphoria as a symptom.

This isn't just happiness.

Why would any adult consider that being frequently in the opposite state of dysphoria to be the desired outcome of treatment? There really is disconnected thinking here in so many ways. But the lack of understanding of life experiences seems to be very clear.

But the hyperbole is now coming through as being rather a clear symptom confirming something else now.

What kind of life is it as an adult to only exist in two planes: dysphoria and euphoria? Without having a deep and mature understanding of either. Again, I think dysphoria has been so often misrepresented too, that those misusing it use it without truly understanding where that dysphoria comes from. Or the opposite state, euphoria.

If after 30 years of medical treatment a person handing someone a brochure targeting women causes ‘euphoria’, the person receiving this brochure is not someone who is living life as a female person. They are still a male person getting immense pleasure at successfully convincing others they are female. They are getting a rush of endorphins just because they are affirmed still after 30 years.

From having society’s sex based stereotypes validated.

I have never felt happiness or unhappiness in receiving a brochure aimed specifically at female people. It, like being female, just is what it is. How the fuck have gender health services and some researchers not seen this type of reaction, euphoria at everyone things, as being significant in a number of very different ways that are all rather important.

Oh, yes. Dr Cass recognises it, doesn’t she? That’s right.

Again, anyone who lives life in a state of euphoria because they are being treated as a woman, is not someone who should be in any advisory capacity that has access to female children and female young people. Particularly, if that person is a male person.

That this person cannot see the significance of the source of that euphoria (or happiness) is a massive red flag. This is not someone to be advising children. The very act of being in a position of feeling validated in this way while, or even by, influencing the significant life decisions of children and young people is the opposite of safeguarding. It is the antithesis of safeguarding. FFS!

Thank you Helleofabore. Having just seen this screenshot of one of the Scottish paper's front page, I couldn't agree more with you. Now just to work up the courage to get the paper and read the whole article.

Slightly clearer picture.

Butters, if you swing from dysphoric to euphoric just because someone hands you a woman's leaflet, do you really think people would regard that as a healthy way to live?

Because it's really not.

You only have to go on Reddit and read some of the MtF threads to see that 'euphoria' is undoubtably used to mean sexual arousal. I am not saying that everyone uses it this way, I am just saying that the word is followed by 'boner' regularly enough for it to be clear that 'euphoria' is used that way.

Exactly.

Lots of things bring me joy: The smell of cut grass; nicely arranged flowers; a tasty meal.

I don't know anyone who has ever described themselves as having a "fresh grass boner"...

For anyone who isn't familiar with the euphemisms attached to "euphoria" and "daily affirmation", it's worth listening to how these words are used in transwomen communities online.

Obviously not all transwomen will be in these online groups, so it's conceivable that any transwoman using them could be doing so innocently. Obviously once it's brought to their attention, they would presumably stop doing so.

Here is MaryCate Delvey reading out many, many examples of their use in this context (sensitivity warning):

https://twitter.com/marycatedelvey/status/1783495273345433818?t=EuWQrQR0PJF32cxkc1WVw&s=19

Leaving aside the euphemistic side of things, Helleofabore, Datun and others have clearly articulated why it's not a healthy state to be in mental health-wise.

It's scary to think of all the distressed adolescents, many autistic and mostly girls, who are chasing "euphoria" through cross-sex hormones and surgeries under the false premise that this will undoubtedly be the answer to why they feel uncomfortable in their bodies during puberty. The "shaky foundations" that Cass describes rest on the misdirection in medical research (complete abandonment of normal protocols) that has stemmed from this type of language.

I find the use of the word euphoria incredibly telling. It's simply one I wouldn't use as an alternative to describe happiness and I suspect most people here would agree with that assessment. The associations of it within the trans community show up it's contextual meaning and reference point. It's just not a typical use.

I think the only time I'd use it, is in association with Sweden.

Well before Sweden was Australia.

But I also don’t think that of euphoria as limited to arousal, although it does certainly include it though.

Sorry. There is a stray that in that post.

Absolutely. I've seen a psychologist commenting on Twitter (possibly Dr P, a clinical psychologist) about how a state of euphoria is linked to psychological problems, such as those listed in a comment above.

It's a kind of double red flag: mental health concerns and the possibility of autogynophilia. The fact that it's used nefariously as a code word amongst autogynophiles, when hiding in plain sight, is key in how it will no doubt play out more widely in the public discourse soon, now that people are paying closer attention. There will be a lot of evidence/receipts of autogynophiles dropping such words in to general conversations and interviews. Obviously there are plenty of other words and phrases that carry meaning related to arousal.

For clarity, I'm not comparing autogynophilia to paedophilia (as the former isn't illegal, presumably because those who are involved - without consent - in the person's fantasy aren't underage) but it's telling how the public only really acknowledges the hiding in plain sight calling signs in hindsight e.g. looking back on footage of Jimmy Savile and how he dropped clues in so many times, either by a particular phrase that he used or by a certain look that he gave the camera when saying something that would otherwise be innocent. As has been pointed out many times on this board, the thrill of getting away with dropping in clues (presumably knowing that some people will spot them and - in the case of autogynophilia - risk being called bigoted or being arrested by police for "transphobia" if they try and call them out) is part of the arousal/euphoria.

I was trying to find a thread I had bookmarked on X by a transwoman who talked about how much of a turn-on it was to be in ladies' toilets and have women speak kindly to them. In this thread, the transwoman was mocking the women for being so dumb (i.e. for being kind and not realising what was happening). As I don't have a paid X account, I can't search my bookmarks but here's a longer video from MaryCate where a she reads out words from transwomen on the euphoria/arousal subject (sensitivity warning again):

https://twitter.com/marycatedelvey/status/1783499893098656161?t=0I3UzTjL3Votne9yA-3I6w&s=19

Her pinned tweet has the whole collection of videos that she's done, now with a handy intro by topic.

Again, I should reiterate, I'm not saying that anyone has deliberately and nefariously used the words "euphoria" or "daily affirmation" in this thread.

it's telling how the public only really acknowledges the hiding in plain sight calling signs in hindsight e.g. looking back on footage of Jimmy Savile and how he dropped clues in so many times, either by a particular phrase that he used or by a certain look that he gave the camera

I started to notice the term euphoria being used when women were challenging men who retained and/or flashed their dicks in women's spaces.

This assumption being that gender dysphoria was a cornerstone of transitioning so why make your penis the lead character in your woman role-playing. The glee with which men said no, it's not dysphoria, it's euphoria, was notable.

They were so cocky and sure of themselves that it wasn't even hiding in plain sight it was yelling it from the treetops.

@mnhq ever since my one and only deletion so far (ages ago) I've not dared to use the word "autogynophilia" or its abbreviation "AGP" on MN until I started tentatively doing so very recently. So far so good without deletion...

I believe I've stayed within the talk guidelines above and would appreciate the chance to reframe my thoughts on this important topic if any of the above posts are reported and found to break the guidelines.

Equally, if any transwoman is reading my above comments and feels offended, I can only state that offence is not my intention. I can't ever imagine a time when autogynophilia is specifically illegal (in the same way as paedophilia is) and this isn't something I'd push for anyway. It's in nobody's interest that "thought crimes" are created as a category - we've already seen the mess that's been created in Scotland with this under new the Hate Crime law.
It's far better that spaces and sports are segregated by sex (to avoid harmful acts being committed) and that the public is aware of the signs and harms of autogynophilia, so that where it is seen it can be highlighted and called out. If that's "kink-shaming", so be it. I would hope that non-autogynophilic transwomen would be in agreement with this and would accept that it's far better to push for men to accept them in men's sports and spaces than to insist that they should be accepted as women.

Ugh, that's grim.

I do not mean it that way at all.

Agreed, that's very much in plain sight. But unfortunately it was/is only visible to anyone that saw this going on (in a social media bubble).
So when the public at large hears the word "euphoria", in their workplace DEI workshops and so on, they are oblivious to it.
Knowing that some women knew exactly what was going on, but were effectively prevented from calling it out, was/is presumably very.. affirming and euphoric.

It is indeed.

Thank you for stating that this wasn't your intention.