Hilary Cass Interview in the Times

[Igneococcus]

Depressing that she doesn't feel safe in public anymore:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/3121a27a-fd54-46d9-894a-f715de429675?shareToken=323bde6f9666d56951b1eb073ded85b1

I agree. Thank you for saying that BH.

I do not appreciate the attempt to associate my description of happiness at experiencing what should be common everyday acts of politeness for anyone - which are only notable to me because I grew up under a context where they weren't - with some kind of sinister seedy hidden meaning that calls my character and motivations into question. You know exactly what you were doing there and it is quite transparent to anyone who reads it as well.

Bunbury please

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3404292-bunbury

For newcomers.

There was no "attempt" to do anything except to call out how the phrases "euphoria" and "daily affirmation" have been used online.
The topic of autogynophilia is incredibly important in understanding how we got to where we are with gender identity belief having infiltrated policies and laws in education, healthcare, sports, prisons and more.

You've stated above that you find it grim to learn that the word is used in this way. Thank you again for doing so.

It's an uncomfortable topic for any transwoman who has been using the words innocently and I'm sure that anyone reading this thread would appreciate that.

Hopefully it's clear that talking about this difficult subject benefits non-autogynophilic transwomen as well.

Ps "common every day acts of politeness" should never involve forcing someone to believe something that they don't.

I will never believe that a man has become a woman, because I will never believe that gender identity exists. I used to believe it did, but I no longer do and haven't for some time.

If I'm told that I need to accept transwomen in women's sports and spaces, this means that I am put in the position where I am forced to accept their stated belief as a truth. I refuse to do so.

PPS I'm pretty much at the point of heading off to visit Bunbury for lunch as I'm getting hungry. However, I also felt it was important to clarify the above, also for any newcomers.

Do you even begin to understand why it is we keep pointing out that you are an inappropriate person to be in any position of advising female children and female young people on anything? You didn't recognise the issues with your language usage at all. Yet, your language has been commented on time and time and time again. The hyperbole, the overly dramatic style. That hyperbole included your use of the word 'euphoria' and you don't seem to have considered it. And it never sinks in that there is an issue.

An adult in a position advising ANY child would have immediately grasped the issue. You, on the other hand, have again centred yourself here in this post.

Besides which, whether or not posters meant euphoria in any wider sense, or as a reference to arousal, you don't seem to be able to acknowledge the issue in its complexity at all.

And you wonder why we keep coming back to the inappropriateness of your advising any female child or female young person, but also questioning whether you should even be advising male people. It is like you have no fucking idea on what a responsible adult role with children encompasses. But worse, you don't seem to even care.

Ugh, that's grim.

I do not mean it that way at all.

Noted re intent, thank you for clarifying.

This does show us two problems, though.

1. When words don't have stable meanings it can cause significant confusion, especially when the terms have relevant and specific technical meanings to the topic being discussed. In this case euphoria/ dysphoria being relevant diagnostic criteria for gender identity disorders.
2. When people use these terms incorrectly, especially in forums frequented by young potential "transitioners" (whether intentionally or not) people become "coached" to use these diagnostic terms among actual professionals, and this has the effect of misrepresenting the feelings of those young people to the professionals trying to help them.

From a poster who is the epitome of politeness (heavy sarcasm) when enforcing their demands on what language must be used by other posters.

Your daily dose of affirmation and euphoria relies on using others to partake in your belief and validate you. You think that is a reasonable ask it is not as has been shown repeatedly by the harms this causes.

Well said

As you suggest Dysphoria and Euphoria - stem from the same root, but exist at opposite ends of its spectrum. Neither state is sustainable or self fulfilling - because both states are determined and dependent on the response of the outside world or the environment to your presentation, and both represent precarious and heightened emotional states.

Swinging from despair to elation is not the same as being stable and well balanced and having a realistic assessment of oneself.

As long as that person is handed sex appropriate leaflets at a conference all’s right with the world. I do wonder if Butters went round and approached the leaflet person again just to get the same woman ✅confirmation again………..

A talk at work given by our trans staff network described 'gender euphoria' as the feeling they get when someone calls them by their preferred pronoun, people 'see' them as the opposite sex, or they are able to get the language in policies changed to reflect their worldview. It came across that it pleased them immensely to have deceived people, or coerced people's speech.

Of the six presenters, five were women and one was a man. Three transmen, two 'non-binary' women and one transwomen. It felt very carefully staged. The overwhelming impression I was left with was that they love the deception, it makes them feel powerful. And my employer panders to this big time, cheering and clapping that they are all so 'authentic', 'living their truth' etc. It's tough for us non-believers.

*transwoman (bloomin autocarrot)

The deceptive element cannot be dismissed unfortunately. No matter how much some people wish to dismiss it.

It someone is treated as a female person when they are not a female person, then there is an undeniable element of deception there. It is very plain to see it when you work it out. But it some people need for it to be made acceptable via language use, hence the huge push for the word 'woman' to be destabilised as it has been.

But, I don't think I am telling anyone anything really. We have all discussed it extensively before, haven't we.

Yet, this is where we land when people declare 'where is the harm'?

What is fasinating is that 'non-believers' are percieving forced pronoun use as a power play and its a perception that is not all together a positive impression.

It kinda sets up people who insist on this, into a position where people take a negative response to this attitude because it produces behaviour which isn't about treating everyone with respect. It hardly encourages tolerance for either party. Such behaviour wouldn't be acceptable in other circumstances.

What it does is make people more liable to avoid, disengage or even produce a backlash effect in the future because no one is thinking about the impact of this distorted and unbalanced power dynamic in the long run.

We already have multiple posters make the comment that prefered pronoun evangelists have attached a big sign to their heads telling other to avoid because they are going to be hardwork / difficult / a potential risk to their own careers.

Theres another current thread running about how forced pronouns are begining to be quietly dropped. This is the first sign of people being totally fed up of it and it being unsustainable to uphold.

Ironically, I doubt people would have a problem with these individuals appearance or personalities otherwise in most cases. The issue is the behaviour that prefered pronouns themselves, create - they are the root cause of toxic behaviour - which it enables. No pronouns, no problem.

As I say, pronouns are not about identity and thats the point. They are about power - unhealthy power over others, not oppressed power and a lack of voice.

Duper's delight?

As I say, pronouns are not about identity and thats the point. They are about power - unhealthy power over others, not oppressed power and a lack of voice.

All about power and compliance as was demonstrated perfectly by the reaction to your post about your brother.

I do not consent to be a bit part player or extra in someone else's validation play about themselves.

Well said. This takes us back to the subject of this thread - the power that transactivists are exercising in order to make an eminent female paediatrician feel scared in public places for doing her job.

I'm still struggling to believe that a pp is willing to throw thousands of lesbian, autistic and ND girls under the bus just to validate their experience.

This isn't a comment on any PPs but I should imagine that most decent people would struggle to imagine anyone from a "marginalised" community doing this, because most decent people would come from a viewpoint that it's very difficult navigating society when you're different from everyone else. I have no doubt that it must be incredibly difficult for anyone who experiences distress about their body and feels that it is wrong for them, especially if they have come to the conclusion that in order to alleviate their distress they need to make life-changing alterations to their bodies (for which there is concern about the evidence base).
I also have no doubt that there are people out there who claim to feel this way (and play the victim well) but are using it as a cover and are indeed willing to throw thousands of lesbian, autistic and ND girls under the bus just to validate their own experience. Obviously we have no way of knowing which category anyone falls into.

I'm probably going to get shot with a friendly-fire harpoon here but I find it helpful when Debbie Hayton speaks out about the dangers of children being pulled towards "gender affirming care" as the solution to their problems. Even though Debbie is a self-declared autogynophile and works in a school (a separate topic in itself), has openly talked about using women's toilets in the past (another separate topic) and has remained in a marriage with a wife (another separate topic), Debbie's voice on the dangers gender identity belief adds a perspective that helps to focus on why adolescents shouldn't embrace medicalisation unquestioningly.

I've just caught up on the latest comments. To add: the separate topics that I mentioned above also all loop back to the power play points that have been raised.

Incredible isn't it, how much power this most oppressed, most vulnerable, powerless minority wield and how 99.99% of the time this power to threaten, vilify and abuse is used against women. Women have had to have extra security measures installed in their homes and offices, live in fear for their safety, their jobs and livelihoods but no the real crime is not providing the necessary quota of validation and euphoria to those whose actions have resulted in an eminent female paediatrician being told by the Police not to use public transport.

Dystopian doesn't cover it.

That's fair.

I'd only encountered the term 'euphoria' in the wild in relation to cheesy electronic dance music compilations of the early 00's prior to seeing it used in relation to trans experiences a little while back. I thought that the goal of positively reframing our existence - identifying and sharing positive moments of happiness (gender euphoria) rather than describing ourselves solely in terms of sadness (gender dysphoria) was a noble one and if it has since been co-opted to mean something creepy then that's very disappointing to hear. I largely ignore the 'trans memeosphere' online as I find it generally quite obnoxious and completely unrepresentative of my own experiences, which probably explains why I've been mercifully spared exposure to it!

Euphoria, as with Dysphoria, is not so much about " being creepy" so much as being detached from reality - existing in heightened states of emotion that bear little relation to everyday life. It's like being. 'in love'. When you are 'in love' you can see no fault at all in the loved one - you are embraced in a glow of connection and intense attraction. That inevitably wears off, though, and the 'real' person starts to show through

We all have peak experiences - but they are not the stuff of everyday reality