Helen Joyce

[darada]

I just wanted to say how much I love Helen Joyce. For me she's the best thing about this whole sordid trans business.

I'd recommend you watch a few of her podcasts on YouTube. The clarity of her thinking and expression, her rationality and her non-tribalism are so refreshing. I also love the fact that with time she's run out of fucks to give and just calls out BS much more directly than her earlier comments.

Helen if you lurk here keep up the good work, I have learned a lot from you and we're all lucky to have you on our side in this increasingly important and urgent fight for sanity and our kids' future.

Perhaps.

I wonder about countries that didn't have enforced castration etc, like the UK. I wonder why didn't we see the predicted tidal wave of self harm in the past, when all the trans people that supposedly existed in secret were not being affirmed?

Yes. Hopefully online subcultures such as fanfic, gaming and tumblr will be the subject of Helen’s next book.

Parents need to know wtf their kids are being exposed online.

(this has already been discussed upthread, so maybe just RTFT next time?)

Here’s Helena (detrans, former trans man) writing about how fanfic contributed to her concluding that she was transgender (which was then affirmed by Planned Parenthood who prescribed her testosterone):

https://lacroicsz.substack.com/p/by-any-other-name

Of course, you actually have to give a shit about the mental health of teen girls to be aware of any of this stuff, which perhaps explains JokeDad and Suggestions ignorance?

thank fuck for Helen Joyce, eh?

Great posts @Mermoose

Ah thank you @Peskysquirrel 😊

Helen did a good interview about Fanfic recently.

I adore Helen Joyce and am another who could listen to her all day. She's calm and clear and an amazing speaker.

I'd give her my last Tunnocks Caramel Bar.

I think what Helen Joyce is saying here is that people transitioning complicates life in two ways.

It causes difficulties for society as a whole, because in situations where we distinguish between men and women (i.e. single sex spaces and sports), trans people do not fit in anywhere. They do not feel comfortable using spaces or competing in sports for their own sex, and other people do not feel comfortable with them using spaces or competing in sports for the opposite sex. This creates a conflict of rights which society has not as yet managed to resolve.

It also causes difficulties for trans people themselves. LGBT+ rights organisations are very clear about the fact that life is very difficult for trans people in many way, and that they are vulnerable, marginalised and at risk of discrimination. As important as it is to fight against that status quo and make life fairer and safer for trans people, it would appear that being trans is not easy. And then there's the issue of people undergoing medical and surgical transition, which usually causes serious health complications in previously healthy bodies. Some people may indeed have such severe dysphoria that hormones and surgery are on balance beneficial to them, despite the downsides from a medical point of view. But isn't it simply common sense to say that these medical interventions should only be performed on people whose dysphoria is so severe (and cannot be explained away by any other issues such as autism, eating disorders or a history of abuse, which should be treated in the first instance) that there remains no alternative treatment but to transition?

Administering puberty blockers to a child who cannot meaningfully consent, or performing a medically unnecessary double mastectomy on a child sexual abuse survivor who just hates her female body, is causing irreparable harm.

Surely it is simple common sense to say that people should only be transitioning if there really is no alternative, therefore keeping the number of trans people as low as possible?

All she is saying is that we shouldn't be misdiagnosing people as trans because the harm caused cannot be reversed.

It is true to say that transgender people, whether or not they are happy, need to be accommodated by society in a way that nobody else needs to be accommodated.

People who are not trans can use single sex spaces for members of their own sex, and compete in sports if they wish to, without any issues. People who are not trans do not need specialised healthcare to provide puberty blockers, cross sex hormones or elective surgery, or to deal with the long term health consequences arising from having had these interventions.

People who are trans do have those issues, whether they are happy with their transition or not.

Obviously, the greater the number of transitioned people there are, the more complicated it is for society to accommodate them in situations where we normally segregate people by sex, the more their healthcare needs cost the taxpayer, and the more people there are likely to be who regret their transition and are unhappy about it (because transitioning was never the answer to their problems in the first place).

I'm not as much of a Helen Joyce fan as some on this thread and I do actually think that the way she expressed herself in this interview was unwise because it opened up her comments to deliberate misinterpretation. But the point she was making isn't actually incorrect, is it?

The history of trans people isn't stable at all.

The largest demographic of people seeking gender affirming medicine is now adolescent girls and young women. This was practically unheard of a few years ago. That is why almost all the research on medical transition is based on trans people who were born male, not trans people who were born female.

Well said @MissScarletInTheBallroom and I would add that suggestionsplease is deliberately combining plenty of dissimilar groups. There is absolutely a long tradition of gender nonconformity in both sexes and in many nations but to suggest that this is the same as the current trans experience over the last 15 years is casuistry. The Fafafine (not sure I've spelt that right) were appalled at Lauren Hubbard's entry into the NZ women's team at the Olympics (and the way he stole the place of their young countrywoman).

But to get back to the main point of this thread before our resident TRA tried to disrupt, yes ❤️ Helen Joyce. I've been an Economist reader for decades and just love her clarity of thought and expression. Her book is outstanding. I've listened to a fair few podcasts with her as a guest and if she has her own I definitely need to listen.

I would like to know why the world has to provide a grandfather the opportunity to feed the secretions from that grandfather's breasts to their newly born infant grandchild. I look forward to Dadjoke telling this thread why that should in a 'sane' world`? That male person has been totally upfront that is purely for them to have that 'experience'.

Tell us Dadjoke, why is this something that society should be accommodating? A grand parent using their newborn grand child to validate their identity. I consider this an abusive act towards an infant who cannot consent, what do you think dadjoke?

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5010993-trans-women-feeding-chemical-ridden-milk-to-babies-approved-by-nhs?page=16&reply=134107981

It is indeed a mental illness, @DadJoke . It is a dysphoria. That is a mental condition. The same as anorexia. It is nothing even remotely the same as being gay. Being gay does not need you to butcher your body, castrate yourself or sterilise children, nor does it involve invading womens most sacred safe single sex spaces. You are being desperately disingenuous comparing the two.

You are a typical gaslighting male, @DadJoke . You, are the one desperately trying to spin an alternative reading on what she CLEARLY said. You're a gaslighter!

I didn't gaslight you, I don't need to gaslight you, you can read exactly what she said, in context.

As for who the leaders of the transgender movement are, Helen Joyce thinks it's Jewish billionaires.

Finally, if Harry Potter slash fic turns you trans, why aren't I a very hungry catepillar?

And what she said was ever so clearly not what you twisted it to be. We can all see and read. So your little attempt at a 'gotcha' fell flat on it's arse.

Nope. Didn’t ask who Helen thinks is the leaders of the transgender rights activism movement, I asked you who YOU think are the leaders.

That was a very dishonest twisting of what was asked. But I have now come to expect nothing less from some posters.

Don’t worry, the readers are taking it all in. All the tactics and emotional manipulation, dishonest misrepresentations, ignoring of female people’s needs, the lot. Do keep going. because if you genuinely think this is progressing transgender people’s needs, you might need a rethink.

Who do you think is behind it then?

Who wants women's spaces and sports to be made mixed sex, and who wants people with trans identities to be medicalised, and why?

Making jokes at the expense of young detrans women is a whole new low for you.

Congrats.

I think that some of the posters who post in this same theme never quite realise just how their posts show their contempt for others. For detransitioners. For homosexual people and those of other cultures when they use their 'whatabout' arguments.

But others notice. It is really quite clear.

I have admired HJ very much and watch all of her interviews, even when she goes over what to me is old ground. Just love how clear she is.

Went to the Brighton LWS with DH and HJ was there. DH often reminds me (smugly) that he is 'famous' for almost standing on HJ's fingers when she was sitting under a tree.

I was too star struck to speak to her or Maya.

I'd be star struck too and would probably say something really fan-girly if I actually met her and then sink into the ground with embarrassment.

Mocking the experiences and reflections of a detransitioner. It's all "Protect Trans Kids", until one of them says she or he regrets the surgery, isn't it?

Then the purportedly lovely and kind male activists mock those children with glee! I'm noticing that female detransitioners seem to particularly come under attack. Is it the characteristic misogyny of trans activists manifesting itself?

The idea that someone who thinks men can become women and that women can become men, expects sinless perfection of Helen Joyce, or anyone else for that matter, is ridiculous. But nothing I have heard or seen from Helen Joyce is anything like the nastiness I have seen from TRAs. And she is not encouraging people to damage their own bodies to try and make them appear like the sex they can never be. Trans ideology really is dangerous tosh.

Ooh false equivalence, another one for the bingo card!

Fanfic itself doesn't 'turn people trans' and HJ has not suggested that it does. Clearly (there's that reading comprehension again).She is discussing the very real concept of tight knit, insular, cultish communities that have sprung up around certain themes, and how these communities can be very influential on young people, often to their detriment.

The link above to Helenas story 'by any other name' details her own personal experience of this phenomenon and how it encouraged her to transition.

Did you read it?