Helen Joyce

[darada]

I just wanted to say how much I love Helen Joyce. For me she's the best thing about this whole sordid trans business.

I'd recommend you watch a few of her podcasts on YouTube. The clarity of her thinking and expression, her rationality and her non-tribalism are so refreshing. I also love the fact that with time she's run out of fucks to give and just calls out BS much more directly than her earlier comments.

Helen if you lurk here keep up the good work, I have learned a lot from you and we're all lucky to have you on our side in this increasingly important and urgent fight for sanity and our kids' future.

What’s ‘healthcare’ about body modification?

In a sane world male people would accept that they belong in a male sports category.

I agree with Helen, she’s very clear thinking,

Dadjoke seems pretty confuddled tho.

In a sane world male people would accept that they belong in a male sports category.

This^^

You are not TRUTERF! 😧

How can you say this? It's HELEN!!!!!!

(Are Tim Tams, Penguins? 🤔)

Stopping health care won't reduce the number of transgender people.

No - but providing appropriate health care would not only reduce the number of transpeople, but would also reduce the number of detransitioners, and reduce the number of people left with very severe physical problems in addition to increased mental health ones.

Genuinely dysphoric individuals* will also receive the help they require to complete transition as safely as possible under effective medical supervision.

BTW - gay people are not trying to damage their own bodies. "Gay" is a sexual orientation, not a desire to be something they aren't.

*as opposed to those who think they may be, and are rushed into social and medical transition before they have a chance to properly work out their emotions

Except many staff at the Tavistock gender clinic, for example, reported that young people in attendance were suffering multiple mental health issues -and that these mental health issues were being treated by ideologically captured practitioners as if they were simply the result of 'being transgender'

Dysphoria, by definition , is a maladaptation, a dysfunction. Autogynephilia is a paraphilia.

You only have to listen to detransitioners to have all of this explained first hand. How the individual went from one mental health crisis to the next before landing on a 'transgender identity' as the solution to all of their suffering. Though it turned out that this was not the solution at all.

I recommend that you try them yourself. They are so much better than Penguins. They are Australian. And now in Waitrose and occado I believe. But we will take over the biscuit aisles every where. Wah ha ha ha ha.

Stopping health care won't reduce the number of transgender people. Debbie Hayton is on record saying (frequently) that the availability of medical transition was what tipped the balance. Prior to that availability becoming apparent Debbie was able to keep the "beachball" as Debbie described it (in other words latent Malaga Airport) underwater. Underwater is no problem to me.

That's interesting. So the availability of 'treatment' creates transpeople. Without this, presumably Hayton and others like him would have remained occasional crossdressers.

Eireannach bródúil eile annseo☘☺

You are all despeparately running round try to put an alternatively reading on what she clearly said. All transgender people are a problem in a sane world, happy or sad, and their numbers should be reduced. This is independent of any other views. If she said is about gay people, you would not be disputing this.

She, and KJK, are honestly the leaders you deserve.

Would love Helen Joyce as a leader though, a voice of sanity to cut through the BS

Why do trans people need medical and surgical treatment if they are fine as they are?

c’mon JokeDad explain it to us terves.

Reading comprehension isn't your strong point is it @DadJoke ?

Are you going to have a bash at arguing your own point? Or just keep kicking that poor strawman (another one for the bingo card).

FYI I'm not 'desperately' doing anything. I agree that we should try to reduce the numbers of people suffering from any medical condition, because medical conditions are by their nature debilitating to various degrees, and they are not things that people should aspire to have.

Being gay is not a medical condition so has nothing to do with this.

Are you arguing that transgenderism is not a medical condition? If it is not a medical condition, as you have been asked many times on this thread already, why does it require medical treatment? If it is a medical condition, why do you believe that it would not be a positive thing to reduce the incidence of this condition?

No. We are looking at what she actually said, which is confirmed by the many hours that we have also spent collectively listening to other interviews where she expresses the same opinion in different ways.

You think you found some outrageous thing she has said. No. It was just blunt and you want to make it sound like she wants trans people to die or something overly exaggerated as that.

And again. How about you tell us how in a 'sane world' children are being medicalised? You will not even answer this basic question.

Here are some of the others:

In a 'sane' world, why are male children sleeping in the same rooms as female children thereby lowering the safeguarding standards for those female children?

In a 'sane' world, should a male child be getting undressed in a shared changing space as female children? And how is this robust safeguarding?

In a 'sane' world, why are male children competing in female sporting events thereby decreasing safety, fairness and opportunity for female children?

See. You declare that her 'sane world' comment is based on some intention of hatred. No. Her 'sane' world is about making sure children are properly protected and not medicalised.

You can continue this path for as much as you want. We will all just keep patiently pointing out just how you are not only misrepresenting her words and twisting them, but that you are incapable of answering the basic questions about your own interpretation of the statement.

Please do keep on going. We have a whole thread.

By the way, would you like to tell us who are the current leaders for the transgender rights movement?

India Willoughby?
Stephen Whittle?
Grace Lavery?
Alok?
Steph Richards?
Sophie Grace Chapell?
Jane Fae?
Munroe Bergdorf?
Montgomery?

Care to tell us?

Here you go, here is another time she has used 'sane world'.

https://thecritic.co.uk/issues/may-2023/not-so-keen-on-free-speech/

Of the many aphorisms about free speech, surely the best known is that attributed to Voltaire: that although he might disapprove of what you say, he would defend to the death your right to say it. It is, of course, excellent — as far as it goes. Often, however, those who seek to silence other people’s speech object not to what they say, but how and where.

Consider Kellie-Jay Keen, aka Posie Parker, a women’s rights activist who holds rallies under the rubric Let Women Speak. She advertises a place and time, turns up with stewards in hi-viz jackets, and hands the mic to any woman with something to say. Some talk about men who identify as women using women’s toilets and changing rooms at workplaces and gyms, or muscling into women-only support groups for everything from addiction to the menopause.

One frequent speaker served a prison sentence locked up with a trans-identified man; another, a disabled woman, fears asking for a female carer only for a man who identifies as a woman to turn up. An increasingly common theme is schools colluding with gender-distressed children’s delusion that they can change sex.

In a sane world, what these women say wouldn’t attract criticism; indeed, it wouldn’t even need to be said. But often they are drowned out by transactivists shrieking threats and slogans of the sort Robert Jay Lifton, in his 1961 book Thought Reform and the Psychology of Totalism, called thought-terminating clichés: “brief, highly reductive, definitive-sounding phrases [that] become the start and finish of any ideological analysis”. “Trans women are women”. “Trans rights are human rights”. “Kill all terfs [trans-exclusionary radical feminists]”.

Here is a recent article about restoring 'Sanity'

https://thecritic.co.uk/restoring-sanity-takes-time/

In fact, you were right there on the thread on the first page!

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5019873-restoring-sanity-takes-time-helen-joyce?page=1

She discusses the issues currently facing adults here .... you know.... issues for a 'sane' world to have to deal with.

Gosh.... I don't see any talk of eliminating humans here... do you?

So, no. We are not 'desperately' trying to put an alternative reading on that statement.

That would all be just YOU.

Here is someone who has direct experience with the health care that Helen is talking about.

As a detransitioner.

Who should we believe?

A detransitioner who understands what Helen is saying, and anyone who understands Helen's use of 'sane',

or

you, a poster who seems to misunderstand or misrepresent most of what they post. Including posting about other male people feeding a substance they produce from their breasts, without actually understanding anything about breastfeeding and the needs of infants, OR reading the actual studies to understand the significant limitations of those studies. And including you not reading the WPATH leaks (too long you said) and instead you posted two articles that had glaring errors and flaws in them.

I think I would go with this detransitioner. She sums it up very well in the paragraph I have pulled out. Your past posting history is there for anyone to read they can use advance search to go and see for themselves.

https://www.varsity.co.uk/comment/24549

"The fact of the matter is Joyce’s argument is far more nuanced than she is given credit for; and, far more important, not everyone who identifies as trans and is receiving trans medical care is trans. In the same way that it is said that “not all trans people are gender dysphoric”, not all gender dysphoric people are trans. I was one of them. When Joyce says, “we have to limit the harm and that means reducing or keeping down the number of people who transition,” she isn’t talking about trans people but people like me; people who are not trans and never will be trans but who thought themselves to be and were diagnosed as such by medical professionals. The mischaracterisation of Joyce helps no-one."

I am just going to pull this last sentence out again.

“The mischaracterisation of Joyce helps no-one."

From one of the articles on this page "fear of being female" : Instead of changing the stereotypes that imprison them, the culture pressures them to change their bodies to fit the stereotypes better.
The culture they are speaking of is obvs Trans culture. Rather than challenging harmful gender stereotypes trans culture embeds them, and enforces compliance with them, rapidly undoing decades of feminist activism.
Thanks For the link

And another Helen Joyce article that actually suits this thread very well. But also shows to readers that DadJoke's misrepresentation is based purely on bad faith.

Here she is talking to and about more detransitioners. This time telling their stories.

https://archive.is/CAJIc#selection-973.0-973.196

Here is one of the relevant sections, but she again touches on the many issues that are facing the world now that society is being forced to find solutions for. When Dadjoke points out that being trans is not a disease or a mental health issue, which therefore makes it an identity, a philosophical belief about themselves. And the world is being forced to accept someone's philosophical belief about themselves as being material reality.... hardly a sane thing to accept really.

here is the bit about the detransitioners, who it seems DadJoke cannot discuss. Like they are an inconvenience to be hidden and never mentioned.

In 2019, while researching an article on paediatric gender medicine, I attended an event in Manchester organised by a feminist group called Make More Noise. It heard from six ‘detransitioners’ — young women who had ‘identified’ as young men for some time, and then stopped doing so.

These young lesbians had been misled by transactivist therapists, the rampant spread of trans-ideology on social media and anti-gay prejudice into thinking they must really be boys.

Many children and teenagers seen by gender clinics would probably grow out of their distress with proper support. Some would probably grow up gay. And some are already contending with mental health problems including eating disorders and self-harm.

But instead of helping the young women at that Manchester event to understand themselves better, the gender clinicians they had seen prescribed testosterone, cut off their breasts and removed their reproductive organs.
It was a catastrophic mistake. The physical changes caused by testosterone, including deep voices and facial hair, were irreversible.

Those whose wombs and ovaries had been removed were sterile. The oldest was 23.

That was when I understood the full horror of what is happening. In the name of a warped ideology masquerading as a civil-rights movement, doctors are potentially endangering children who may be gay or mentally ill.

How did we get here? Young adults have certainly changed since my student days.
Many now see themselves and the world through the lens of gender, sexual and racial identity, placing great store by ever more specific self-descriptions (they might, for example, be a ‘queer non-binary asexual person of colour’).

The objective reality of our shared human nature is sidelined, in favour of what each individual feels or claims about themselves.

It's really not anyone else's problem that you are choosing to interpret what she said as somehow nefarious and reading into it things that aren't there.

Most of us on here are capable of understanding what someone says just fine without your alternative take on things.

And will you just stop with the if x said this about y group instead of trans. It does you no favours.

Helen Joyce as PM and KJK as her right hand woman would suit me just fine!

Quite. If you stand up and say I want there to be less abused children in this world, does anyone in their right mind think you are calling for genocide? To kill all the victimsof child abuse? Or just dadjoke?

It was great though reading some of Helen’s previous work. And I was reminded of her night at Cambridge too.

And here she is on Triggernometry. Being blunt, and clear.