They / them at work

[pootlefump]

I've just written a long post and it's disappeared so in brief - how do you deal with staff who are they/them at work? I will really struggle to call a very obvious biological male 'they'. I also can't loose my job and do want to be respectful but also can't change my view on this nonsense !

I’m not saying. You’re asking me silly questions to which you know the answers perfectly well, in order to pick at what I say so you can shore up your disgraceful prejudices.

Carry on with your hate.

Oh come on. This is seriously disappointing, just resorting to insults when you've reached a point where you can't respond rationally.

Why is it hateful and prejudiced not to agree with you that transwomen are women, and that they need access to single sex spaces/resources?

And there we have it, incapable of providing a logical, coherent argument or explanation so resort to insults and slurs. Pathetic.

People are asking you to explain and substantiate your position.
That's all.

If you read all this posters posts they have cycled from wheedling and "bekind" to linking to studies without reading them, to abuse, to forced teaming, to linking to studies without reading them, to wheedling and "bekind" and back to abuse.

There's very little in the way of rational engagement going on.

Lack of rationality sums up Gender Ideology and ideologues.

There's no hate here. Keeping spaces single sex is not hate. Indeed, you want to keep sports single sex. Is that hate?

But they're not silly questions. Genuinely your position appears incoherent to people here. You're being given the opportunity to explain this better.

Hmm. Thinking aloud here, and I accept that I can’t speak for transwomen. I seem to have implied that transwomen are emotionally immature if they wish to access women’s spaces. I think I stick by that. They need to “man up” and accept that women have rights, and that means they need to accept that life can be unpleasant and we do not have a right for other people to bow down to our wishes. Men entering women’s spaces without invitation or consent (from all women) is disrespectful, and we should look for other solutions to our own problems. Third spaces could be a solution to some of those problems.

My own history includes being very uncomfortable when I first heard a woman being clear about women’s boundaries because I felt she was labelling all men, including me, as a threat to women. A wise older woman listened empathetically to my “NAMALT” reaction, which helped me to accept that I am, like it or not, part of a category which includes people who are “like that”. Later, I realised that my own behaviour wasn’t perfect. Reclaim The Streets was another step in my understanding; after an initial dislike of the campaign, I accepted that it was valid, and I am now very aware that I can help a little by not following a woman closely, or by crossing the road to keep my distance. All that process was one of emotional maturation, of becoming more aware of other people’s needs and less concerned about my own feelings.

Just a reminder of the false claim that 320 trans people were killed in the US that this poster made and has failed to correct.

Silly?

I’m not being hateful here, I genuinely want someone/anyone, to be able to answer the most simple question. If you are unable to express a coherent answer, just say so.

I’ve explained my views until I’m blue in the face, and provided links to back up what I say. I think I’ve been clear. Those links aren’t good enough for people here, despite them coming from reputable institutions like Harvard. Posters are pretending not to understand because it suits their agenda.

I don’t think that anything I say or link will encourage any posters to be more considered about trans women and less fearful of them.

I’m sorry if anyone is frustrated, but I just don’t have the time to go as deep and spend as much time on this as you want me to, in order to justify myself. I feel I have justified myself adequately already. I have a full-time job and am also currently a live-in caregiver for a family member. I simply must get back to RL.

I have explained a lot and I think my views are easy to understand, if you wanted to understand.

I remain really shocked at just how thorough the prejudice is. I thought most reasonable people were like me, realising that being trans is a real thing and that trans folk are vulnerable, but should not be allowed to self-ID and should have a GRC before being able to use the women’s loos, and shouldn’t be allowed in women’s sports. To me, this is the best shot at being fair to everyone. I’m only advocating loo access bc most places don’t have the space for separate trans loos. I think that would be the fairest solution to everyone.

But no, that’s not enough for people here. Nothing less than wholesale denial of trans folk and their vulnerabilities, and of the level of assault they face, and of the psychological pain they face in not fitting in anywhere will do. And I am not OK with that.

Trans people are not out to get you. Most are harmless, like most non-trans people are harmless.

I don't want to put words in your mouth, Belichtofalict, but you seem to be saying that a transwoman counts as a woman as long as they are "moral" or don't mean any harm to women and that they are "in pain" and "vulnerable" and I'm sure there are plenty who are like that.

Unfortunately, we can't make laws on that basis. You can't say to one transwoman, "You're allowed in because I think you're harmless" but say that another one is a "chancer". That's not what case-by-case means here.

There's no way of letting Nancy the Nice Transwoman who is fully transitioned and has a GRC into somewhere while keeping out Pete the Pervert who's up to no good and hasn't even bothered to shave his beard off. He has just as much right to be there because there's no gatekeeping of who is trans and who isn't and you'll be the one in trouble if you report him.

Everyone else corrected it for me. And it wasn’t a false claim, I posted the link so everyone could see what it really said. I
misread it because guess what, I don’t have endless time.

Well, that’s the same for everyone in public, isn’t it? You have no idea if a stranger in public is going to attack you or not.

I’m not being very considered right now bc I should really get back to my RL responsibilities.

"I don’t think that anything I say or link will encourage any posters to be more considered about trans women and less fearful of them."

I don't think transwomen (or transmen) need more consideration from me or anyone else, beyond the usual considerations that every person should have in a reasonable society. I am not fearful of them. I don't think that their personal identity means that they need access to single sex spaces/resources of the sex that they identify with, but aren't. That's all.

I think the prejudice is yours. Against women. I also think that we can't judge for ourselves whether we've been clear. The communication recipients judge. You've not been clear at all. Denial of transbfolkk hyperbole is a very very disrespectful way to speak to people who've experienced harm at the hands of males IMHO. TW are not harmless just like men aren't. So I'll ask you again, why not just mix all spaces? most men are harmless.

For the millionth time. Most men are harmless.why don't we allow all men into women's changing rooms and toilets?

The links you provided have all been written by trans activists.

We've seen them all before.

None of them give a checklist of how to determine a genuine trans versus fake trans.

Well, many spaces ARE mixed. Most council pools have mixed changing rooms and showers. Yes, that must be uncomfortable for some women. I wasn’t mad on it myself. Women are vulnerable everywhere in public, including walking down the street. And most of the time it’s men that are responsible, not trans women.

Trans rights activists believe transwomen are women. Acceptance without exception. Women come in all shapes and sizes. Some women are indeed very tall - I am pretty tall for a female - and some are more athletically built than others, so there will always be women whose physicality gives them the edge over other women in sport.

So… if transwomen truly are women, then they belong in women’s sport, going by the fact there will always be women who are taller or stronger than other women. And by this same logic, transwomen who commit crimes belong in women’s prisons, loos, changing rooms, rape crisis centres, etc.

However... Transwomen are NOT women as they are not female. That’s the only qualifier to be a woman; you have to be born female. Transwomen are male people who wish they were female. They can adapt their gender presentation - through clothing, hair and make-up. They can call themselves a girl’s name. Nobody is stopping them doing any of those things or denying their right to embrace their feelings of femininity. They can do all that.

What’s really unfair is for the category of “woman” to be redefined to include males who want to be women. You can’t end the oppression of women and advocate for our much-needed sex-based protections and single-sex spaces if your definition of “woman” includes male people.

I have real sympathy for people with gender dysphoria, by the way. That’s why I firmly believe in third spaces and sports categories for trans people.

Oh, @AlisonDonut , you and your wretched checklists! I’m imaging your home as covered in checklists for everything you need to do!!!

I’m sure Stonewall has something if you really want one!

When’s your birthday? I’ll write you a checklist since you love them so much! I don’t think the content matters, just as long as you have a new checklist to admire! 😬😬😬

So it seems that the most inclusive and kind thing to do then would be to make everywhere mixed sex.

Except that leaves our "most vulnerable" transwomen right back with the men they were trying to get away from.