They / them at work

[pootlefump]

I've just written a long post and it's disappeared so in brief - how do you deal with staff who are they/them at work? I will really struggle to call a very obvious biological male 'they'. I also can't loose my job and do want to be respectful but also can't change my view on this nonsense !

So how do you tell the difference? And ‘quacks like a duck’ is not an answer.

😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

Yes you keep telling us.

How do you work out who is genuine and who isn't?

SerendipityJane

@SerendipityJane

You don't know their sex. That's when we use "they" and "them" and "their". It's smoother than "he or she", which is what we used to say in English.

You are not being asked to pretend that someone you know to be a man, is a woman, by using female pronouns to refer to him.

How do you think these people have ended up in the ‘wrong’ body? Can someone born with a disability say they are in the wrong body and therefore identified as able bodied? Can I, a white woman, identify as a black woman because ‘I was born in the wrong body’ or is it just the sex of the body that’s wrong? You really need to think these things through better.
the vast majority of posters on here would be more than accepting of men in dresses, and support their right to wear those dresses. But that doesn’t mean they will accept that people can change sex. My sexed body is what biology has determined. No amount of drugs or surgery or clothing or make up can change my sexed body, it’s an absolute impossibility. If a transwoman with breast implants is buried then dug up 100 years from now, a pathologist would be able to correctly sex them. They wouldn’t think - oh this skeleton has a couple of breast implants on their chest, therefore they must be female.

You are not being asked to pretend that someone you know to be a man, is a woman, by using female pronouns to refer to him.

??? Yes you are. That's exactly what the demand is about.
Why on earth would a penis person demand you refer to them as "she" otherwise.
It's to make you play pretend.
No thank you.

You misunderstood. I was referring to the ease of use of "they" for an unknown person and why it is different to using"she" etc for someone you know to be a man.

a penis person

👏

@Belichtofalicht

I believe there are people who have strong feelings, overwhelming even, about their bodies.
I don't believe anyone has changed sex because it's impossible.
Or that anyone has the wrong sex brain for their body. Also impossible. And how would they even know there is a brain-body mismatch, not having had any other brain or body?
How do they know their brain is female, not male?

It doesn't matter from a women's rights point of view how strongly or sincerely a man thinks he is, or wants to be, a woman - he is not a woman and can't become one. And we should not be suppressing truth and oppressing women and girls to validate his subjective, unverifiable beliefs about himself.

Specifying what pronouns another person should use when referring to you, whether in your presence or not, is an attempt to compel speech. On its own, that is enough reason for me not to comply.

When I said that trans women are female in their hearts, minds, and souls if not in their bodies, you know full well I didn’t mean their biological hearts.

Then what does it mean?

We just don't know.

I don't think so. I think that's someone who absolutely does not get it. Pretending that we can't spot sex with the idea of choosing pronouns is supporting a system of oppression (to women). Actually what this person is asking is for women NOT to be treated with dignity. That's why this pervasive attack on women's rights needs to be called out whenever it happens. People who label themselves as non-binary are wrong in their assumption that others are identifying with oppressive stereotypes, they are wrong that pronouns equals identity and they are wrong in not seeing the harm their ideology is causing to those people who are genuinely the most vulnerable (not trans people, yes they have some vulnerabilities, no they are not the most oppressed. Indeed TW are some of the worst oppressors in some instances).

What I wrote was 100 percent clear and you are being disingenuous. I’m not going to be pinned down to micro-explaining because you’re pretending not to understand. There are perfectly good dictionaries if you’re really struggling. If English isn’t your first language then I apologise.

It was clear as mud @Belichtofalicht ,that's the problem. If there's a way we can know who is "true trans" then we are ALL EARS but as yet you've not explained what your definition is.

Hee hee, I knew someone was going to pretend not to understand! You’ll get nowhere trying to pin me down to ever-smaller micro-explanations. I can spot disingenuity a mile off. You know exactly what I mean.

Why else would you ask such a silly question when I defined it upthread anyway? READ. And if you truly don’t understand, whether the word “genuine” or the word in the context of this thread, your local college probably has some remedial classes.

I answered this somewhere upthread. Basically regular people who change sex and get on with their lives, without rabble-rousing about infiltrating women’s sports and being threatening towards people who use the wrong pronouns.

@Belichtofalicht , I work in a prison. I know many trans people. I currently have a transwoman living in my prison, who has had some surgery, who wears womens clothing, makeup and a "feminine " hairstyle. They are definitely trans, they were trans in the community long before they came to prison. I am sure they "feel" like a woman, and I suspect they would meet your definition of a genuine transwoman. They are held in a male prison, though, because they are a man.

It's not OK anymore to say that people can be socially transitioned but not legally.

lol so you have absolutely no way of separating out a “true trans woman ” from
”a man wearing a dress”

Don’t worry, it’s because there is no way to do it

No one can change sex, they can only present as a facsimile of the opposite sex

men however they present or what ever surgery they’ve had or however lovely they are do not belong in women’s spaces. There is no benefit at all for women in giving up their places and spaces to men

And how is a woman meant to tell the difference if she encounters someone who is obviously male but dressed in women’s clothes in a changing room or toilet? Is your reasoning that all the genuine ones are indistinguishable from actual women?

Or do you think that all the ‘proper’ ones will be sufficiently respectful of women not to use our spaces?

This thread is completely disgusting. I thought as women we were objecting to trans people infiltrating sport, and changing rooms via self-ID, and women losing their jobs because they’re GC. I agree all of that is completely wrong.

I never dreamed that the movement was about complete, utter denial of the existence of trans people. That is much more than I can stomach. Where is your compassion for these individuals who often live such hard lives, rejected by everyone around them and their own families?

But of course, if you deny that they exist, you don’t have to extend compassion to them.

I think the wholesale denial of genuine trans people is shocking. And don’t ask me to define genuine trans people. You know exactly what I mean.

Now I see the need for trans people to have legal protections.

It’s been a total eye-opener to see what trans people are up against:

A total denial of their existence and their sincerity, and a wish to see them obliterated - ie to stop them expressing their opposite-sex selves completely.

History is full of powerful groups seeking to eradicate less powerful groups, but I never thought I’d see it in other middle-aged women who grew up in the same times as me.

It’s not enough to get some common-sense legislation banning bio-born men from women’s sports, and protecting gender critical speech, and stopping men entering women’s changing rooms via self-ID, is it? You want to wipe all trans people off the face of the earth, which is much easier to justify to yourselves if you tell yourselves they don’t exist, so there’s nothing to obliterate.

The attitudes here make me feel sick.

I am a lesbian, and I still find your views highly offensive.

People who have transitioned look indistinguishable from those who are merely dressing as women. You’ve probably shared changing rooms with trans women and not known. I would not let anyone without a GRC use women’s changing rooms, and medical treatment should be required to get a GRC.

The irony is that someone who has transitioned wouldn’t be asked to show a GRC, bc you can’t tell.

Obvious males in a dress, who therefore have not had treatment, should not be allowed in women’s changing rooms, in my view. Only when they have completed transitioning and have a GRC to prove it should they be allowed in.

I am a lesbian, and I still find your views highly offensive.

What part of that was offensive? I'm genuinely intrigued.