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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

They / them at work

1000 replies

pootlefump · 14/03/2024 18:59

I've just written a long post and it's disappeared so in brief - how do you deal with staff who are they/them at work? I will really struggle to call a very obvious biological male 'they'. I also can't loose my job and do want to be respectful but also can't change my view on this nonsense !

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29
PonyPatter44 · 17/03/2024 13:54

I don't see anyone wishing that transwomen didn't exist. What most of us are saying is, they shouldn't be trying to use womens spaces, whether that's the toilets in John Lewis, or the Olympic swimming shortlist.

Belichtofalicht · 17/03/2024 13:55

Theeyeballsinthesky · 17/03/2024 13:32

No one can change sex, they can only present as a facsimile of the opposite sex

men however they present or what ever surgery they’ve had or however lovely they are do not belong in women’s spaces. There is no benefit at all for women in giving up their places and spaces to men

This is a good example of the shocking prejudice I’m talking about. You refuse to acknowledge that regular trans women with no nefarious motives exist. Well, I’m sorry, but they do, and you have likely shared loos and changing rooms with them, without ever knowing. I cannot believe that you deny the existence of those people.

WaitingForMojo · 17/03/2024 13:56

AccidentallyWesAnderson · 17/03/2024 13:52

I am a lesbian, and I still find your views highly offensive.

What part of that was offensive? I'm genuinely intrigued.

The deliberate misgendering, and the ‘othering’ of the trans community within the LGBT movement, as well as the language used around the ‘invasion’ of female only spaces.

But I have a sneaking suspicion that you don’t agree with me.

It’s not so long ago that homosexuality was subject to this level of prejudice.

Snowypeaks · 17/03/2024 13:56

I think the problem is your comprehension skills, @Belichtofalicht
If I don't accept someone else's belief as truth, that person still exists.

Stop being so ridiculous and hyperbolic. I suspect even you don't really believe what you are saying.

You want to wipe all trans people off the face of the earth

Receipts, please.

WaitingForMojo · 17/03/2024 13:57

PonyPatter44 · 17/03/2024 13:54

I don't see anyone wishing that transwomen didn't exist. What most of us are saying is, they shouldn't be trying to use womens spaces, whether that's the toilets in John Lewis, or the Olympic swimming shortlist.

And what most of us irl are saying is that trans women are just people who want to try on clothes in shops and have a wee.

Belichtofalicht · 17/03/2024 13:57

AlisonDonut · 17/03/2024 10:59

Yes you keep telling us.

How do you work out who is genuine and who isn't?

I’ve answered this question many times on this thread, including to you before. As you know. Remember: Disingenuity doesn’t work on me.

Snowypeaks · 17/03/2024 13:58

@WaitingForMojo

So what's wrong with using the men's facilities, which they have been using all their lives up until 5 minutes ago? Why do they have to go to the women's toilets? There aren't any urinals there, anyway.

AccidentallyWesAnderson · 17/03/2024 13:59

And what most of us irl are saying is that trans women are just people who want to try on clothes in shops and have a wee.

Is anyone disagreeing with this though? They can wee and try clothes in, in the areas appropriate for their sex.

AccidentallyWesAnderson · 17/03/2024 14:00

It’s not so long ago that homosexuality was subject to this level of prejudice.

Stating that sex is important in various settings isn't prejudice. Spaces are segregated by sex for a reason, that doesn't change no matter how one identifies.

SirChenjins · 17/03/2024 14:03

Belichtofalicht · 17/03/2024 13:57

I’ve answered this question many times on this thread, including to you before. As you know. Remember: Disingenuity doesn’t work on me.

No you haven’t.

Remember- Lying doesn’t work on me.

JanesLittleGirl · 17/03/2024 14:04

@Belichtofalicht Here is a photo of a queue for the Ladies' at a railway station. Is there anyone in the picture that shouldn't be there?

They / them at work
Belichtofalicht · 17/03/2024 14:05

Soontobe60 · 17/03/2024 11:10

How do you think these people have ended up in the ‘wrong’ body? Can someone born with a disability say they are in the wrong body and therefore identified as able bodied? Can I, a white woman, identify as a black woman because ‘I was born in the wrong body’ or is it just the sex of the body that’s wrong? You really need to think these things through better.
the vast majority of posters on here would be more than accepting of men in dresses, and support their right to wear those dresses. But that doesn’t mean they will accept that people can change sex. My sexed body is what biology has determined. No amount of drugs or surgery or clothing or make up can change my sexed body, it’s an absolute impossibility. If a transwoman with breast implants is buried then dug up 100 years from now, a pathologist would be able to correctly sex them. They wouldn’t think - oh this skeleton has a couple of breast implants on their chest, therefore they must be female.

They can change sex to an extent, although not completely of course, and to trans people it’s a torment to live as the opposite sex to the one they feel they are inside. You’re lucky that your insides and outsides align. Not everyone is so lucky, and for those who aren’t, their lives very difficult. Most are not PITA trans extremists and don’t want to infiltrate sports etc. and are not interested in looking at you. They just want to transition and be left the heck alone to live their lives.

But now I see that some people will not tolerate even that kind of trans person, which I find sickening and shocking. I actually never dreamed that 100 percent intolerance was behind female concerns about the teams movement. 😳

SirChenjins · 17/03/2024 14:08

They can change sex to an extent

No.
They.
Can’t.

No-one can change sex - to any extent. You need to get that into your head.

Belichtofalicht · 17/03/2024 14:10

JanesLittleGirl · 17/03/2024 14:04

@Belichtofalicht Here is a photo of a queue for the Ladies' at a railway station. Is there anyone in the picture that shouldn't be there?

This is a pointless exercise. One weirdo doesn’t mean we should be prejudiced against all trans people.

Belichtofalicht · 17/03/2024 14:11

SirChenjins · 17/03/2024 14:08

They can change sex to an extent

No.
They.
Can’t.

No-one can change sex - to any extent. You need to get that into your head.

I don’t “need” to do anything.

But you need to examine your prejudices.

PonyPatter44 · 17/03/2024 14:11

Unfortunately the "PITA trans extremists " are the ones who spoiled it for the male people who just wanted to wear dresses and get on with their lives. They are the people who should have spoken up when all this TRA nonsense started and said "no, not in my name". But they didn't, because they didn't think about the wider consequences.

Belichtofalicht · 17/03/2024 14:12

SirChenjins · 17/03/2024 14:03

No you haven’t.

Remember- Lying doesn’t work on me.

Sorry, I thought I was replying to Alison Donut.

But I have answered it a lot on this thread, if not to you.

AccidentallyWesAnderson · 17/03/2024 14:13

Stating biological fact isn't prejudice.

SirChenjins · 17/03/2024 14:13

Belichtofalicht · 17/03/2024 14:12

Sorry, I thought I was replying to Alison Donut.

But I have answered it a lot on this thread, if not to you.

I picked up on that comment and replied to it - and no, you haven’t.

MississippiAF · 17/03/2024 14:14

SirChenjins · 17/03/2024 14:08

They can change sex to an extent

No.
They.
Can’t.

No-one can change sex - to any extent. You need to get that into your head.

👏

Belichtofalicht · 17/03/2024 14:15

Snowypeaks · 17/03/2024 13:58

@WaitingForMojo

So what's wrong with using the men's facilities, which they have been using all their lives up until 5 minutes ago? Why do they have to go to the women's toilets? There aren't any urinals there, anyway.

Yeah, I don’t know. I don’t know why they can’t just use the men’s until their transition is complete and then use the Ladies when they’re fully transitioned and living fully as a woman. By which time you can’t tell the difference by looking anyway, once all the hormones have done their job.

SirChenjins · 17/03/2024 14:15

Belichtofalicht · 17/03/2024 14:11

I don’t “need” to do anything.

But you need to examine your prejudices.

Yes you do - no-one can change sex to any extent. The fact that you believe they can is what’s causing you to conflate biological reality with prejudice.

SerafinasGoose · 17/03/2024 14:15

Of course trans people exist. They're not going anywhere. Gender dysophoria - I've experienced bodily dysophoria if not gender-related so have some insight into this - is a very psychologically painful condition. The gender presentation which best helps to alleviate this dysophria is not an issue for me.

This isn't the same thing as changing biological sex. Conflating the two, when it comes to prison accomodation, women's sports or anything else that is at risk of harm from this biological difference, is a legitimate concern. I can understand this is why some people might not want to use opposite-sex pronouns which blur this distinction: once the clear definition of 'woman' has been muddied, it's harder to stick out for the rights of biologically female people.

As to non-binary, if people want to identify as such because they reject regressive gender stereotypes, I have no issue with that at all. The caveat is that this is as long as they don't attempt to ride roughshod over women's separate rights. I reject regressive gender stereotypes too. So far, we are equal. The 'they' pronoun only grates on me because it's grammatically inaccurate, which is a 'me' issue and admittedly a small one.

In my perception there's a clear difference between trans people and the aggressive MRA activists who have misappopriated their rights for more nefarious ends. In my profession I meet and work with trans- and non-binary people a lot. I've known the old-school transsexuals people talk of, and for the most part they have been harmless, peaceable people. A couple had the kind of paraphilia whose existence is denied by TRAs, and which as a consequence doesn't bear mentioning on MN. They admitted as much.

The problem with breaking down boundaries between women and trans women is that we don't know at a glance who the peaceable ones are and which present a danger. It's the same rule, in fact, which applies to our everyday dealings with men. And we all know if those boundaries are breached, predatory men WILL take advantage.

It's possible to have deep concerns over women's rights and still broadly support the many, many decent trans people out there. But of course this isn't good enough for the more aggressive lobby. Total capitulation is required or you're a bigot who qualifies for The Acronym.

I call people by their desired names. I don't deadname people. But I'll avoid gendered/sexed pronouns by bending language to eliminate these. This isn't 'transphobia'. It's a clear way of ensuring no one is offended and that there is no active harm done either to trans people OR women.

Women matter too.

Belichtofalicht · 17/03/2024 14:16

SirChenjins · 17/03/2024 14:13

I picked up on that comment and replied to it - and no, you haven’t.

I have, and I’m not going to the trouble to search and repost. I have explained myself very clearly in this thread, if you care to read my posts, but I’m not doing the work for you.

SirChenjins · 17/03/2024 14:17

Belichtofalicht · 17/03/2024 14:15

Yeah, I don’t know. I don’t know why they can’t just use the men’s until their transition is complete and then use the Ladies when they’re fully transitioned and living fully as a woman. By which time you can’t tell the difference by looking anyway, once all the hormones have done their job.

Ha ha ha.

Yes, you can absolutely tell. Living life identifying as a woman and filling your male body with artificial hormones does not a woman make. Ever.

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