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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Janice Turner interview with Debbie Hayton in the Times

559 replies

CaptainWarbeck · 03/02/2024 07:08

Share token link here: Debbie Hayton: the trans woman taking on the trans activists

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/df87fe47-3dd3-4f35-ac48-81f54aeb418f?shareToken=a53b2f201cdd4c204b9009b204cb1ef3

Janice neatly runs through a history of trans issues with Debbie including a discussion of AGP. An excellent read I thought and will get a wide audience as a Saturday Times Magazine article.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
28
Metamorphosising · 03/02/2024 16:17

BettyFilous · 03/02/2024 16:11

You have to ask whether a teacher who was so open about having one of the other sexually-motivated paraphilias like frotteurism, exhibitionism or voyeurism would be allowed to practice it in a school setting.

Yes. I remember a while back a female teacher was sacked for having an only fans account, or something, yet this chap is openly divulging his sexual preferences which he likes to indulge in 24/7, otherwise it is like holding a beach all under water. I am sure many, many men would describe their own sexual urges as being like trying hold a beach ball under water too, but they manage it without letting it out at work.

ArabellaScott · 03/02/2024 16:35

Froodwithatowel · 03/02/2024 16:12

“GC Ultras” = "I'm GC, but Not Like Them."

Are we really now going to see more women spit on us as they agree we were right all along but they will do it all in a Much Naicer Way?

There's already been plenty of that all along ime. Us domesticated zombies are expendable, of course.

Datun · 03/02/2024 16:56

Does she actually understand what's going on?

A man who presents as a woman as a sexual fetish, will become sexually aroused by being regarded as, spoken to as or 'treated' as a female, (be that pronouns, or inclusion in a woman's only space or service.)

So when he is asking his pupils, to call him Miss, it's a turn on. It's sexually arousing.

Does Janice really think that children should be providing their teacher with sexual arousal?

I'm sure she absolutely doesn't.

So what is she not seeing? What are her eyes sliding past?

This is a journalist. And a journalist who never wastes a single word. What, exactly, does she think she's actually written about?

Does she think that a man who has owned up to getting turned on by being treated as a woman, suddenly isn't that person when they're in a school??

ButterflyHatched · 03/02/2024 16:58

For god's sake, can someone please just issue her the Ernst Rohm medal for useful idiocy? I don't have high hopes but it might have a small chance of sparing us the tedium of seeing yet another self-defeating cognitive dissonance-laden article from the Most Transphobic Trans Woman In Britain.

Datun · 03/02/2024 17:13

lol Debbie H is not transphobic. Debbie is a sterling, totally typical example of what a trans identified male is.

He might just be a little smarter than some of you.

OldCrone · 03/02/2024 17:26

LoobiJee · 03/02/2024 16:02

“The issue of pronouns is becoming absolutist on BOTH sides. Stonewall demands even bearded rapists be called "she", GC ultras refuse to call any trans woman "she". I reject both positions. I never call male sex offenders she/her. But I will be courteous to those who respect women”

“GC Ultras”

Wow.

“those who respect women”

A man who repeatedly misleads his wife, and does whatever suits him whenever it suits him regardless of the impact on his wife, is someone who respects women?

Maybe we’re learning that JT respects women about as much as DH does.

I'm going to quote part of the other interview from 2020 showing just how much DH respects his wife.

Interviewer: So Stephanie, what was this period like for you then? Where Debbie is becoming more and more consumed with this idea that she wants to transition? She's first of all, what was the first inkling for you that, 'okay, there's something more here that has to be dealt with' rather than just something that Debbie is privately dealing with. When did it first come on your radar that we have to deal with something here?

Stephanie: (sarcastically) I don't think it was a case of coming on to the radar, I think it was a case of being told. I can't actually remember the exact announcement. Except I do know that Debbie said it to me. Said that she was a woman born in a man's body, that she wasn't going to transition because it would upset me, and our family life too much, but that rather people had already been told.

And over the next few months, as Debbie said, it did become very consuming of her, that I think links with some of the trans community and certain counsellors didn't help. So that Debbie would announce to me that I had nothing to say on the matter because I wasn't trans, so I didn't understand.

That this was, well first of all, it was that she wasn't going to transition even though she really should do, and then it became actually she had to transition, and that she was going to transition whether I agreed with it or not, whether I wanted it or not. And that if necessary that she would walk away, leave us all, as long as she could transition.

A man who treats his wife like that does not respect women.

Datun · 03/02/2024 17:36

OldCrone · 03/02/2024 17:26

I'm going to quote part of the other interview from 2020 showing just how much DH respects his wife.

Interviewer: So Stephanie, what was this period like for you then? Where Debbie is becoming more and more consumed with this idea that she wants to transition? She's first of all, what was the first inkling for you that, 'okay, there's something more here that has to be dealt with' rather than just something that Debbie is privately dealing with. When did it first come on your radar that we have to deal with something here?

Stephanie: (sarcastically) I don't think it was a case of coming on to the radar, I think it was a case of being told. I can't actually remember the exact announcement. Except I do know that Debbie said it to me. Said that she was a woman born in a man's body, that she wasn't going to transition because it would upset me, and our family life too much, but that rather people had already been told.

And over the next few months, as Debbie said, it did become very consuming of her, that I think links with some of the trans community and certain counsellors didn't help. So that Debbie would announce to me that I had nothing to say on the matter because I wasn't trans, so I didn't understand.

That this was, well first of all, it was that she wasn't going to transition even though she really should do, and then it became actually she had to transition, and that she was going to transition whether I agreed with it or not, whether I wanted it or not. And that if necessary that she would walk away, leave us all, as long as she could transition.

A man who treats his wife like that does not respect women.

Bingo.

If necessary Hayton would walk away, and leave his entire family, in order to get aroused by pretending he's a woman.

And Janice Taylor thinks he's not doing this in the school he works in!!!

C'mon Janice!! Wake up.

WifeOfTiresias · 03/02/2024 17:45

LoobiJee · 03/02/2024 08:22

but our paths have crossed before. First at an early meeting of Woman’s Place, a group set up in 2017 by left-leaning feminists to oppose Tory plans to introduce self-identification. Most welcomed a trans woman’s support, but not one lesbian academic and her friends, who screamed from the balcony, “You’re a man!””

Screamed”, eh Janice? Not “shouted” or “yelled”?

“Certainly Hayton, who now wears jeans, T-shirts and little make-up, seems to have reached the comfortably married stage with her female self.”

But Hayton knows that Hayton isn’t female. So how can Hayton have a female self? Disappointing if that’s Janice’s choice of wording.

“This, says Stephanie, was the hardest point, with Debbie distracted and self-obsessed. Meanwhile Stephanie shouldered the whole domestic load, going to parents’ evening alone so their children wouldn’t be embarrassed by Debbie. Hayton jokes that, alas for wives, “living as a woman” doesn’t involve doing more chores.”

Chortle, chortle, oh how so very amusing it is that domestic chores are for those boring old-fashioned women.

“Eventually, Stephanie asked Debbie to leave the family home, but that crisis point passed and their relationship began to improve.”

Skips over the detail of Hayton saying he would leave if Stephanie said so, and then refused to leave when she did say so.

He barely dated girls until, in his third year at Newcastle University studying astrophysics, he met Stephanie, just 19…
^^
Both evangelical Christians, they did not live together before they married aged 25 and 23, and as their wedding approached, Hayton felt he must tell Stephanie his secret. He was sweating with dread as he confessed he sometimes cross-dressed, yet she would barely recall the conversation….

In 2011, Hayton could hide her feelings no longer and told Stephanie, who was shocked. “Trans issues were not in the mainstream then,” she tells me. “And my priority was our three children, then aged nine to thirteen.” The couple agreed Hayton should not transition yet, just grow longer hair.”

Makes you wonder if that pre-marital conversation about cross-dressing was one that took place out loud.

For decades, says Hayton, transsexual women have relied upon female goodwill to use their bathrooms and changing rooms, but self-ID destroyed that precious trust. “Women were happy to take in the odd refugee from masculinity. But in the past five years it’s become a wave of colonisers, and that’s very different.””

How do you know women were happy, Debbie? Did you ask all women?

try finding a life partner as a post-operative 22-year-old trans woman attracted to females. Your dating pool is tiny. Basically you’re looking at bisexual women and many of them end up with men.”

So way the way to make sure you get access to a heterosexual sex life, offspring, and domestic support services is: you withhold the truth from the woman you are targeting until you’re confident that being honest with your spouse won’t cause you any personal disadvantage or inconvenience.

Transition often ends in divorce, yet they have managed to repurpose their marriage, sharing a room but not a bed, both now celibate. “It does work,” says Hayton of her remodelled genitalia, “but it’s not as easy. And without the testosterone in your body, you just can’t be bothered.” Both say they are bonded by love and a long shared history. Debbie notes that while she gained her female self, her wife lost the man she married. And Stephanie, feisty and tough, balks at the idea she is a passive victim, a “trans widow”. “I feel sad at times, but I’m at peace and Debbie is so much happier.”

Hayton did not gain a female self. Hayton gained a new hairstyle, clothing, media profile, and career.

If my experience is anything to go by, that premarital conversation was probably a played down load of half truths including "I've only dressed occasionally", "I'll never do it again" and "I'm absolutely sure I'm not transsexual". Poor Stephanie, a young woman in her early twenties who probably had next to no knowledge of the trans world, wouldn't have stood a chance. Then I bet that misleading conversation was dragged up when Debbie decided to transition to justify why Stephanie had no right to object as "I told you years ago."

Nordensost · 03/02/2024 18:20

I honestly cannot fathom why so many supremely intelligent women are kow -towing to Hayton.
I wouldn't call myself a feminist, I know zilch about feminist theory.

But he's a bloke. He wears clothes that would be typically be bought from the woman's part of a clothing store. Fine, I've bought fisherman-style jumpers from the men's department. No big deal.

But with the breast implants, and
that he tells his students to call him Mrs/Miss Hayton. How is he any different to this Canadian bloke?

Janice has completely disregarded the children wrapped up in all of this. Shame on her.

Janice Turner interview with Debbie Hayton in the Times
Sealwright · 03/02/2024 18:58

I can't get over how those shows in the photo obviously don't fit. We know whose shoes they are.... why doesn't she have her own nice shoes?

Sealwright · 03/02/2024 19:03

I mean shoes, don't I?

I can't get over how those shoess in the photo obviously don't fit. We know whose shoes they are.... why doesn't she have her own nice shoes?

popebishop · 03/02/2024 19:48

I wonder if TRAs would say that DH is genuinely trans? I don't know what DH has said or done that convinces people they are fearful of themself as a trans person. DH seems to like themself quite a lot.

ArabellaScott · 03/02/2024 19:49

Of course he's genuinely trans! He's had his cock off and it doesn't get more extreme than that.

Leafstamp · 03/02/2024 20:11

popebishop · 03/02/2024 19:48

I wonder if TRAs would say that DH is genuinely trans? I don't know what DH has said or done that convinces people they are fearful of themself as a trans person. DH seems to like themself quite a lot.

They don't think he's genuinely trans as he thinks TWAM.

Leafstamp · 03/02/2024 20:12

Also, what is 'genuinely trans' anyway?!

Ereshkigalangcleg · 03/02/2024 20:17

I think they see him as more of a quisling.

popebishop · 03/02/2024 21:42

Leafstamp · 03/02/2024 20:12

Also, what is 'genuinely trans' anyway?!

I don't know, but I'm trying to work out why a trans person who seems fine with who they are can be transphobic for saying things others don't agree with, so I wondered if DH was dismissed as "no true transwoman".

Of course no-one will be honest and state what claims they disagree with so probably not worth more than a passing think!

CrystalSea · 03/02/2024 21:51

I wonder if Debbie is acceptable to a lot of women because the clothing isn’t overly sexualised. Plus he’s never going to pass in a month of Sundays.

I’m assuming the timeline of transition is largely correct even if the story is inconsistent. So cobbling together from the article and the interview with both of them, when their daughter was on the cusp of puberty at 13, Debbie decided to transition. Stephanie asked him to wait but he refused. He went to the GP and began taking female hormones. He started baking bread and refusing to take the bins out.

He fell increasingly down an internet rabbit hole and felt he had to publicly come out. He made life very difficult at home. When their daughter was 16 and two months away from her GCSEs, Stephanie asked Debbie to leave but Debbie refused. That summer they agreed the timeline. Debbie left school in December that year as Mr Hayton and came back as Miss Hayton.

DisappearingGirl · 03/02/2024 22:41

I thought it was an interesting interview and I think Debbie is quite an interesting person. Certainly some selfish traits but I don't think they're an entirely bad person either. I think hearing Debbie's and Stephanie's experiences is interesting.

I also thought the thread with the article written by the psychologist who works with AGP males was interesting.

* goes and cowers in a corner *

NeighbourhoodWatchPotholeDivision · 03/02/2024 22:58

Metamorphosising · 03/02/2024 15:31

I disagree. The use of female pronouns for a man who admits to getting off on perceiving himself as though he were female, eclipses much of the good the article can do. I think it also is hurtful for his family who still use male pronouns for him. Calling him she is just playing into his fantasy projection persona.

In one of the Daily Mail articles earlier this week, there was an implicit reference to the children having to use female pronouns about DH in the presence of non-family members, in order to stave off accusations of transphobia.

RethinkingLife · 03/02/2024 22:58

Something had been snagging at my mind about the tights.

In his Dictionary of Accepted Ideas, Gustave Flaubert alphabetised some of the cliches and platitudes common among the French bourgeoisie during the 19th century. His aim, in his own words, was “the historical glorification of everything generally approved”. Under “Bandits”, he wrote: “Always Fierce.” Under “Materialism”: “Utter the word with horror, stressing each syllable.” Under “Tights”: “Sexually exciting.” And under “Woman”: “Person of sex. One of Adam’s Ribs.”

Were Flaubert to revive his Dictionary for the UK today, he might keep the bit about materialism. But presumably the “Woman” entry would now read: “Can have a penis. If one is a Labour MP, utter this sentiment with great conviction in interviews.”

https://unherd.com/2022/05/stella-creasys-bourgeois-feminism/?=frlh

Stella Creasy's bourgeois feminism

Criminalising catcalling won't stop men hitting their wives

https://unherd.com/2022/05/stella-creasys-bourgeois-feminism?=frlh

Slothtoes · 04/02/2024 00:13

Oh no that is a silly tweet from Janice Turner. I take it allllll back. She’s usually spot on so I assumed the ‘she’ used here was just Times editorial policy (and it may be). But that tweet shows that you were quite right Datun. I was a bit shocked to see it.

How can anyone possibly think Hayton respects women?! When the sole reason Janice Turner is interviewing that person is because he literally fetishises, ‘others’ and therefore dehumanises women, quite obviously the literal opposite of respect.

What is it about him that she could have seen that possibly tells her that he respects women? Please, please tell me it’s not because he doesn’t use the women toilets that she finds him respectful? Hmm
I mean, that would be a a looooooooooow bar.
If men using the men’s toilets meant that they respected women, we’d have solved this whole misogyny thing centuries ago

FannyCann · 04/02/2024 09:36

He started baking bread and refusing to take the bins out.

Funny how he refused to take the bins out, presumably seeing as something unwomanly, meaning that the actual woman in the house had to take on the job. As well as all the other chores that don't constitute part of "living as a woman".

Off topic but I now want to know who takes the bins out in the Jolyon Maugham household. We know he bakes bread, he was recently offering sour dough starter to acolytes on X. 🤔

RebelliousCow · 04/02/2024 11:04

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