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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Janice Turner interview with Debbie Hayton in the Times

559 replies

CaptainWarbeck · 03/02/2024 07:08

Share token link here: Debbie Hayton: the trans woman taking on the trans activists

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/df87fe47-3dd3-4f35-ac48-81f54aeb418f?shareToken=a53b2f201cdd4c204b9009b204cb1ef3

Janice neatly runs through a history of trans issues with Debbie including a discussion of AGP. An excellent read I thought and will get a wide audience as a Saturday Times Magazine article.

OP posts:
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28
pickledandpuzzled · 03/02/2024 10:57

Is Janice not just letting him speak for himself? Convicted by his own words.

I am always interested when interviewers on radio let trans women rattle on in their masculine voices, demonstrating distinctly male socialisation. When there is fawning then they clearly don’t get it. When they are neutral I assume they do.

Who needs to say anything much when trans women are explaining who they are.

ArabellaScott · 03/02/2024 10:59

Moreover, it’s harder to demand access to intimate female spaces if that need is erotically motivated.

And what about demanding school children call you 'Miss'?

Datun · 03/02/2024 11:07

ArabellaScott · 03/02/2024 10:59

Moreover, it’s harder to demand access to intimate female spaces if that need is erotically motivated.

And what about demanding school children call you 'Miss'?

And every time you walk outside in a dress.

Froodwithatowel · 03/02/2024 11:08

And quite possibly talking in depth in an interview to a woman journalist.

LoobiJee · 03/02/2024 11:14

Froodwithatowel · 03/02/2024 11:08

And quite possibly talking in depth in an interview to a woman journalist.

And, with 100% certainty, having a styling and photoshoot for a weekend supplement.

Melroses · 03/02/2024 11:19

ArabellaScott · 03/02/2024 08:56

Stephanie, feisty and tough, balks at the idea she is a passive victim, a “trans widow”. “I feel sad at times, but I’m at peace and Debbie is so much happier.”

So long as Debbie is happier, eh?

I understand not wanting to think of oneself as a victim. But in my experience victims are often enormously tough. That implied suggestion that women can avoid abuse by being 'feisty' is quite mistaken and damaging - and a subtle form of victim blaming.

Why would Stephanie think Transwidows are passive victims?

They were only doing what she was doing. It is like the women who think they will never be a victim of domestic abuse because they are "strong". Yet you meet so many women who say " I didn't think it would be me "

Froodwithatowel · 03/02/2024 11:22

I missed that gem. That's appalling. Ffs, 'transwidows' are anything but bloody passive. If they were passive victims they'd still be enacting whatever the main character in their lives felt like today. It's taken most of them staggering steps of courage and hardship and planning to escape the abuse they were living with, and to rebuild their own and their children's lives.

😡

That's a harder one to forgive, JT.

Allthegoodnamesarechosen · 03/02/2024 11:24

Way way back , in the 1970’s , Vidal Sassoon was doing a phone in. He was explaining how it was necessary not just to wash and condition your hair, but to use a third stage rinsing product, which , oddly enough , no other shampoo company was offering.

Over to the audience ( questions were live then not time delayed). Some bloke rang in …’ and what would you like to ask Vidal, Mr. Bloke?

Mr Bloke ‘ you’re a wanker, mate’

Talk show host ( after moment’s pause for gasping ’ Anything else? ‘

Mr Bloke: ‘Nah’.

I always think of that when I read stuff like Debbie’s.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 03/02/2024 11:29

I was at the ‘You’re a man!’ meeting. It was an example of how, even in some GC / feminist groups, men like Hayton get prioritised over women.

Me too and yes!

Ereshkigalangcleg · 03/02/2024 11:31

Same here,I've got an oven to clean.

Be sure to pop on your Marigolds!

Slothtoes · 03/02/2024 11:31

Janice is very clever and a subtle witty writer. I think she’s taking the piss out of the ludicrous sexy girl stereotype that these men like to imagine themselves as for sexual thrills. I also think the subs will not allow anyone on this broad topic not to use ‘she’ because of complaints so don’t read into that. More important to have gotten this article in print reaching a big audience.

Extending that ludicrous sexy girl stereotype to Hayton’s level of not dressing like that any more (..maybe because he ‘can’t be bothered as the testosterone has left his body‘?) is a little ironic point Janice is making about how women are critiqued by shitty men for not making a huge sexy girl effort once they are married or in a LTR. It shouldn’t be a stick to beat any woman with that they’re not dressing for the male gaze. There’s more though, that is highly relevant here, which is also that if women of Hayton’s age do wear look at me clothes they get told they’re ‘trying to be’ a sexy girl stereotype (which is an ageist stereotype) and that wanting to be seen as a sexy older woman is ludicrous and unsexy to the male gaze… so women of a certain age can’t win with the male gaze whatever they do. Janice Turner is asking whether Hayton’s kind of performed femininity gets a free pass on that critique, and why. (Answer: male sexual privilege)

I feel grubby reading lany AGP man talking about their fantasies because women are clearly such objects and accessories to them. Not equally human beings and people as much as these narcissistic men themselves are. It feels akin to someone wanking in public basically which obviously makes me feel gross and sets off red flags pointing to someone not safe to be around. I find AGP is really really unpleasant to think about as a woman.

I feel very sorry for his wife and the kids, and that’s no comment on her staying or not staying with him at all. The whole gigantic affair with self is so absolutely uncaring of anyone else’s needs though, it’s tragic and must be very hurtful in a family.

And the benefiting from female labour and tolerance is so marked. Why (for example) is Hayton described as so often being at the brink of all these professional accolades (I really liked the visual Hmm of Hayton posing wearing rubber gloves by the sink) while Hayton apparently admits not doing a fair share of the housework and it’s mentioned that Stephanie has a more minor professional career. Janice Turner is deft enough to not editorially comment but the quotes makes very obvious the male privilege and male sexual privilege that society still elevates and condones so much. Turner allows Hayton’s own words to to hoist themselves by their own petard.

And all of that said strategically in terms of public discussion of GC issues, undoubtedly it is very helpful to have someone like Hayton who falls squarely under the trans umbrella, saying publicly that transwomen can be men with AGP. And saying that they themselves refuse to use the ladies loo because they’re not a woman.
And pointing out how they have been attacked by the #bekind community for not transwomaning properly. These are all key points for everyone to understand about the gender identity politics of today and how it’s conducted.

I think that interviewing Hayton was a smart and considered move by Janice. I also think this interview with Hayton will be one off by Janice Turner as it serves its purpose making all the points. Hayton won’t be short of interview requests from elsewhere though I’m pretty sure.

TheMerryBandofPanderingShitwits · 03/02/2024 11:42

And another thing. DH was clearly a hands off father to his three children or he'd realise putting tights on a three - or even 5 year old - is like stuffing a live octopus into a very small envelope using only your left hand. If an adult can't do it, a child can't.

Datun · 03/02/2024 11:54

I think that interviewing Hayton was a smart and considered move by Janice.

i'd like to think it was strategic, but I've seen far too women women fall for his disingenuous bullshit.

I do think many people will see through it, though. The selfishness cannot be hidden. In fact, it's front and centre.

if it is strategic by Janice, then fuck me she's a genius.

Melroses · 03/02/2024 12:06

She is very good at subtly bringing out the inconsistencies.

Usually she is very clear in her column, but I suppose this is a glossy magazine style.

Anyway, time will tell.

ZuttZeVootEeeVo · 03/02/2024 12:11

EmpressaurusOfTheScathingTinsel · 03/02/2024 10:21

Janice is responding to the comments which is interesting.

Whats the gist of her responses?

ArabellaScott · 03/02/2024 12:13

Melroses · 03/02/2024 11:19

Why would Stephanie think Transwidows are passive victims?

They were only doing what she was doing. It is like the women who think they will never be a victim of domestic abuse because they are "strong". Yet you meet so many women who say " I didn't think it would be me "

In this instance I believe the 'passive victims' is being directed at women speaking about the damage done and I guess ending the relationship. Whereas the 'strong feisty' ones are those who accommodate the fetish and accept the situation.

Does that sound accurate?

Nordensost · 03/02/2024 12:16

@ArabellaScott

I thought I was pretty feisty for packing up that day and moving in to a hotel. Back then I had no idea about anything trans or AGP, but I trusted my instincts.

Nordensost · 03/02/2024 12:17

Datun · 03/02/2024 11:54

I think that interviewing Hayton was a smart and considered move by Janice.

i'd like to think it was strategic, but I've seen far too women women fall for his disingenuous bullshit.

I do think many people will see through it, though. The selfishness cannot be hidden. In fact, it's front and centre.

if it is strategic by Janice, then fuck me she's a genius.

I will gladly eat all of my summer and winter hats if this is the case!

ArabellaScott · 03/02/2024 12:21

LoobiJee · 03/02/2024 11:14

And, with 100% certainty, having a styling and photoshoot for a weekend supplement.

I did appreciate the shots that were set up to show the backing cloth and what was behind it. Quite a good visual metaphor.

morningtoncrescent62 · 03/02/2024 12:27

I think Janice is a very smart cookie. She's also tough and resilient, and she's been in this fight a long time, publishing articles on women's rights when almost no-one else was doing it. I don't think for a moment that she's being taken for a ride.

We need to get autogynephilia out there into public discourse. At the moment, very few people have heard of it. We need articles like this one, in mainstream publications, to start conversations. And I do wonder whether the choice Janice made to use female pronouns for someone who is so clearly a man will actually help people to notice and question when they come across other news articles using wrong-sex pronouns.

Slothtoes · 03/02/2024 12:28

Datun I agree that the inconsistencies and the over arching sexual motivation are very apparent and to a lot of people very unsavoury. Made plainly to read as such by Janice Turner’s article. I don’t feel any concern therefore that JT who met the interviewee and wrote that article is somehow at the same time blinded or oblivious to it all. There’s plenty scope to have made it a giant colour supplement puff piece if she had felt this was someone actually stunning and brave.

Metamorphosising · 03/02/2024 12:59

popebishop · 03/02/2024 10:14

Basically I think getting the key concepts out, "having an affair with yourself", "we're not the nost hard-done-by" etc into the mainstream, are worth a bit of fanning the flames of obvious self-promotion.

I don't think many people are going to be won over by DH himself based on that, the whole thing is done to provoke.

I did find that this article gave me the ‘ick’. Not sure if it was JT playing into being his hapless sexual prop with the pronoun thing, or if it is just the pure 🤢🤮feeling which accompanies involuntarily picturing a man ‘fancying himself’ dressed in women’s clothes, being confronted by him talking in detail about the structure of his cock and him being so shameless and public about it. It feels like exhibitionism to me. The sing-songy tone JT adopts throughout feels as though she is trying to make male exhibitionism seem normal.

I feel the article should have a warning about how it might make some people uncomfortable to read it.

Melroses · 03/02/2024 13:21

ArabellaScott · 03/02/2024 12:13

In this instance I believe the 'passive victims' is being directed at women speaking about the damage done and I guess ending the relationship. Whereas the 'strong feisty' ones are those who accommodate the fetish and accept the situation.

Does that sound accurate?

I have no clue why she would think it would be less passive to stay and accommodate than to leave. You have to be 'strong and feisty' whatever you do and from what I can see you lose what you had anyway.

Maybe she thinks she is fighting it from within?

WickedSerious · 03/02/2024 13:21

Ereshkigalangcleg · 03/02/2024 11:31

Same here,I've got an oven to clean.

Be sure to pop on your Marigolds!

I'm allergic to them.

Sad but true.