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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Janice Turner interview with Debbie Hayton in the Times

559 replies

CaptainWarbeck · 03/02/2024 07:08

Share token link here: Debbie Hayton: the trans woman taking on the trans activists

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/df87fe47-3dd3-4f35-ac48-81f54aeb418f?shareToken=a53b2f201cdd4c204b9009b204cb1ef3

Janice neatly runs through a history of trans issues with Debbie including a discussion of AGP. An excellent read I thought and will get a wide audience as a Saturday Times Magazine article.

OP posts:
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ResisterRex · 10/02/2024 17:00

Thank you for posting that tweet, Utopia. Hadn't seen it and it's pertinent n

Elspyth · 10/02/2024 17:00

KohlaParasaurus · 10/02/2024 16:47

I feel as if GC women have allowed Janice Turner to stand on our shoulders and now she's pissing down on us. Not cool. Not one bit cool. But I'm very heartened to see the direction of the comments on the article.

Get a grip. JT is one of the reasons the media now report on this issue. How Patronising.

ZuttZeVootEeeVo · 10/02/2024 17:02

To be fair, Janice was in this right from the start - she was at Speakers Corner in 2017

We were talking about it here in 2013.

On reflection, i think lots of people were against the Conservatives self id proposals, more than failures of the GRA and EqA.

ResisterRex · 10/02/2024 17:18

KohlaParasaurus · 10/02/2024 16:47

I feel as if GC women have allowed Janice Turner to stand on our shoulders and now she's pissing down on us. Not cool. Not one bit cool. But I'm very heartened to see the direction of the comments on the article.

Well, I understand what you mean even if you're being told to get a grip (unnecessarily rude, I thought).

It's all very well for Janice to have the luxury of "courtesy", and the further luxury of deciding not to delve into awkward matters like the schools guidance, or what goes on in an AGP's school when that AGP is right there, posing about in marigolds when he doesn't help round the house, but most of us don't have such luxuries.

And some of us decided to lend support in ways we could, like having a subscription because of journalists unafraid of material reality.

Like you, I'm glad the Times readers are signalling their displeasure on the snotty attitude and refusal to even try to understand if things might have gone a bit wrong.

Wattnow · 10/02/2024 17:40

What I mean is - what would we do if a male teacher who wears a suit and tie to work published a book about what sexuallly arouses him?

Let's do exactly that regardless of outfit.

ZuttZeVootEeeVo · 10/02/2024 17:56

I think any teacher who writes a book about what sexually arouses them shouldn't be teaching.

Datun · 10/02/2024 18:19

Yes. Janice Turner has been a fantastic ally.

Partly because she's a very influential writer in a mainstream newspaper, partly because she's a bloody fantastic wordsmith but also, because she genuinely was on our side.

And I think she still is.

The benefit of mumsnet is that you get, quite literally, potentially thousands of women questioning what you say.

The thrashing out of these issues here, is, I genuinely believe, second to none.

You hear all sides of the argument. You hear all the expertise. You hear all the individual people who are impacted. As a resource, it's invaluable. And, of course, you also hear all the TRA arguments, with relentless monotony.

it makes you question everything, it gives you information, it gives you knowledge that you would otherwise not acquire, it brings you to a cohesive, comprehensive argument.

And then, it does something extra. It makes you evolve. It makes your argument evolve. In real time, you see the impact of what you thought was okay, that suddenly isn't okay.

Because you hear from women who you might never have considered, and realise that they too, are impacted.

I have no other way of saying this that doesn't sound a little patronising, but maybe Janice Turner (and Andrew Doyle), might benefit from a spell on here.

To thrash out what they think. To hone their argument. To listen to people who are not like them, maybe.

What was interesting to me was that James Kirkup, another brilliant writer and ally, wrote an article that women here, including me, didn't quite get. And we criticised it, and he bloody well showed up here to explain.

It was good that he took that step.

KohlaParasaurus · 10/02/2024 18:28

Elspyth · 10/02/2024 17:00

Get a grip. JT is one of the reasons the media now report on this issue. How Patronising.

I appreciate JT's previous work on this issue, but a journalist is only as good as their last article and I reserve the right to feel angry and betrayed when someone I have regarded as a voice of reason on this issue not only appears to have fallen hook, line and sinker for the Trojan horse that is Debbie Hayton (I wasn't convinced of this after the initial article, I thought she might be being sharper than that), but then uses insulting language about those of us, many of whom are her paying readership, who express discomfort with this position. It makes me think, "What's coming next? Is this the start of an about turn?" It makes me wonder if I should revisit her old articles and see if she was really saying what I wanted to believe she was saying. (I won't. Life's too short.)

I should add that I enjoyed reading JT's long interview with Kemi Badenoch in today's Times.

ArabellaScott · 10/02/2024 18:32

Its going to take the equivalent of a teacher isla bryson to bring it out into the open. Then schools and government will have to do something about it.

You mean, like a working teacher who has a sexual fetish about wearing women's clothing and being called a woman, and openly admits that, say, writes a book about it?

Floisme · 10/02/2024 18:35

I think it's a real shame that both Janice Turner and Andrew Doyle hit back as quickly as they did. Janice went on Twitter as soon as the pushback started and Andrew knocked out an article and a podcast the day after he had received homophobic abuse when I imagine he was still upset.

I think that if they'd taken a bit more time then we might have seen more measured responses. But unfortunately the media doesn't work like that and now they're both locked into combat mode.

MalagaNights · 10/02/2024 18:36

Datun · 10/02/2024 18:19

Yes. Janice Turner has been a fantastic ally.

Partly because she's a very influential writer in a mainstream newspaper, partly because she's a bloody fantastic wordsmith but also, because she genuinely was on our side.

And I think she still is.

The benefit of mumsnet is that you get, quite literally, potentially thousands of women questioning what you say.

The thrashing out of these issues here, is, I genuinely believe, second to none.

You hear all sides of the argument. You hear all the expertise. You hear all the individual people who are impacted. As a resource, it's invaluable. And, of course, you also hear all the TRA arguments, with relentless monotony.

it makes you question everything, it gives you information, it gives you knowledge that you would otherwise not acquire, it brings you to a cohesive, comprehensive argument.

And then, it does something extra. It makes you evolve. It makes your argument evolve. In real time, you see the impact of what you thought was okay, that suddenly isn't okay.

Because you hear from women who you might never have considered, and realise that they too, are impacted.

I have no other way of saying this that doesn't sound a little patronising, but maybe Janice Turner (and Andrew Doyle), might benefit from a spell on here.

To thrash out what they think. To hone their argument. To listen to people who are not like them, maybe.

What was interesting to me was that James Kirkup, another brilliant writer and ally, wrote an article that women here, including me, didn't quite get. And we criticised it, and he bloody well showed up here to explain.

It was good that he took that step.

I think this is a good point.

I definitely return here exactly for that reason. I often don't agree with the majority here and at times it can feel a bit isolating or frustrating, and frequently my viewpoint winds people up, and I ask myself: why do I keep coming back to a forum where it's so difficult at times.

And I know it's because I'm working out my position through these tricky discussions. I want to test my thinking and see what the counter arguments are. And my thinking has evolved because of this.

I have been wondering what JT would be saying if she was on this thread. Whether she's considered some of the points raised, whether she'd have a good counter point.

I wonder if people like JT and AD are having debates which are honing their thinking or whether they've reached a point where they now only interact with people who think the same.

I think JT has the right to use whatever pronouns she likes and I dislike the dismissal of her and all the great work she's done. It was the Trans issue that made me realise free speech really is the fundamental issue, but I'd like to see her discuss it and think it through on here.

But I fear it would feel like a relentless pile on.

ResisterRex · 10/02/2024 18:51

I was surprised to see JT and AD get so cross, so quickly.

I definitely return for the challenge. I've been mulling over what happens if the GRA is repealed for a while, and especially again today! It's another thread but I'm sure posters here would have ideas about how it could work and examples of grandfather clauses in other areas of law.

DaffodilsAlready · 10/02/2024 19:03

ZuttZeVootEeeVo · 10/02/2024 17:02

To be fair, Janice was in this right from the start - she was at Speakers Corner in 2017

We were talking about it here in 2013.

On reflection, i think lots of people were against the Conservatives self id proposals, more than failures of the GRA and EqA.

Yep, it first came to my attention in 2012 or 2013 when there was a radical feminist conference turned away from Conway Hall for only allowing women in and not transwomen.

ResisterRex · 10/02/2024 19:10

ZuttZeVootEeeVo · 10/02/2024 17:56

I think any teacher who writes a book about what sexually arouses them shouldn't be teaching.

Exactly

EmpressaurusOfTheScathingTinsel · 10/02/2024 19:16

DaffodilsAlready · 10/02/2024 19:03

Yep, it first came to my attention in 2012 or 2013 when there was a radical feminist conference turned away from Conway Hall for only allowing women in and not transwomen.

Ok, I didn’t know that.

RethinkingLife · 10/02/2024 20:02

DaffodilsAlready · 10/02/2024 19:03

Yep, it first came to my attention in 2012 or 2013 when there was a radical feminist conference turned away from Conway Hall for only allowing women in and not transwomen.

As many of you will remember, the Radfem 2012 conference in London was explicitly open only to born women and consequently attracted lots of condemnation and anger from people who saw this as transphobic. It was kicked out of its original venue at Conway Hall and went underground (very successfully in the end).

This year Radfem 2013 has not explicitly banned transwomen... but instead it's come under attack from Men's Rights Activists, who have staged a demo at the planned venue, the London Irish Centre, while making lots of unpleasant and ridiculous claims about how radical feminists want to murder small boys and the like. As a result the venue is threatening to cancel the booking.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womensrights/1738600-Radfem-2013-and-the-MRAs

2013 Cancellation

A COMMUNITY centre has abandoned plans to host a controversial “radical feminism” conference amid fears for public ­safety.
The London Irish Centre, in Camden Town, said it did not have the “manpower” to deal with the RadFem conference after receiving threatening phone calls over its initial decision to accept the booking. It has contacted police and warned activists not to turn up in June.

https://www.camdennewjournal.co.uk/article/fury-irish-centre-cancels-radical-feminists'-conference-booking-amid-fears-over-safety

Radfem 2013 and the MRAs | Mumsnet

As many of you will remember, the Radfem 2012 conference in London was explicitly open only to born women and consequently attracted lots of condemnat...

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/1738600-Radfem-2013-and-the-MRAs

RethinkingLife · 10/02/2024 20:19

EmpressaurusOfTheScathingTinsel · 10/02/2024 19:16

Ok, I didn’t know that.

A lot of history of the warnings and contemporary events from the early 2000s has been lost on MN between people deleting their posts after the MRA incident and various other events. Plus there was the moderation that has deleted entire threads or Swiss Cheesed them.

However, very crudely, feminists had spotted the logical outcomes of identity politics decades ago and the discussion had been intensifying during the 90s. It was treated with varying amounts of respect or disbelief, even after Press For Change - Mission Statement 1994 and everything that flowed from that.

It developed in the lead-up to the GRA 2004 and there were vigorous exchanges of opinion.

After that, there has been Maria Miller's WESC. The unheralded changes to the NHS records and annex B.

Somebody like R0wantrees could have put together an excellent timeline and it would be very helpful.

The above are just off the top of my head. There are many other waypoints and milestones I've omitted.

EmpressaurusOfTheScathingTinsel · 10/02/2024 20:33

RethinkingLife · 10/02/2024 20:19

A lot of history of the warnings and contemporary events from the early 2000s has been lost on MN between people deleting their posts after the MRA incident and various other events. Plus there was the moderation that has deleted entire threads or Swiss Cheesed them.

However, very crudely, feminists had spotted the logical outcomes of identity politics decades ago and the discussion had been intensifying during the 90s. It was treated with varying amounts of respect or disbelief, even after Press For Change - Mission Statement 1994 and everything that flowed from that.

It developed in the lead-up to the GRA 2004 and there were vigorous exchanges of opinion.

After that, there has been Maria Miller's WESC. The unheralded changes to the NHS records and annex B.

Somebody like R0wantrees could have put together an excellent timeline and it would be very helpful.

The above are just off the top of my head. There are many other waypoints and milestones I've omitted.

Thank you.

Hepwo · 15/02/2024 20:21

I sort of get where GENSPECT et al are coming from. It's obvious there's a different cohort of young boys now drawn to a female identity because of autism and other diagnoses and intelligent therapeutic approaches to this with intervention at an early age does seem like an effective approach.

An amazing writer published a series of articles about parents of these boys a couple of years ago.

I will see if I can find that again.

Therapists taking a softly softly approach in the world of present day children are going to have a different perspective to those of us that see men who were children decades ago and have already been treated and solidified under the regime we are now seeing as explicitly harmful and sexist and rooted in both homophobia and obsessive compulsive disorders about target location errors (a phrase used by earlier sexologists)

I just think we have to consider how different age groups are currently affected as people with these conditions and risk factors as we phase through the about face underway.

I feel some of the misunderstanding emanates from that.

I'm not ignoring girls, just talking in the context of DH.

UtopiaPlanitia · 16/02/2024 12:56

Of interest to the thread, another review of Hayton’s book; this one is by Sarah Stuart on her blog:

https://the-lies-they-tell.org/2024/02/11/review-of-book-transsexual-apostate-by-debbie-hayton/

Here’s a Twitter thread with additional info and discussion about the review:
https://x.com/sarahstuartxx/status/1756658702851948948?s=20

popebishop · 17/02/2024 08:50

Of course, this instinct involves three year old Hayton getting excited over the word ‘eighty’ because it sounds like ‘tights’ (Loc 136) (which it doesn’t, but lets just play along).

Tbf I had assumed this was to do with packets of tights saying "80 denier" or something.
(Imagine if the interest was in the word "denier"!! A Freudian field day...)

Froodwithatowel · 17/02/2024 08:56

Thank you for the link. Was just about to read, but struck by the picture at the top of the article. Madigan, speaking to thirteen people in the shot. Four of them have their hands over their mouths.

ZuttZeVootEeeVo · 17/02/2024 09:31

popebishop · 17/02/2024 08:50

Of course, this instinct involves three year old Hayton getting excited over the word ‘eighty’ because it sounds like ‘tights’ (Loc 136) (which it doesn’t, but lets just play along).

Tbf I had assumed this was to do with packets of tights saying "80 denier" or something.
(Imagine if the interest was in the word "denier"!! A Freudian field day...)

I doubt mrs hayton was wearing 80 denier in the 1970s.

If its true i think its likely to come from the spelling, rather than the sound - tights, eighty.

popebishop · 17/02/2024 09:43

Good point, when did 'denier' come in?!

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