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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Janice Turner interview with Debbie Hayton in the Times

559 replies

CaptainWarbeck · 03/02/2024 07:08

Share token link here: Debbie Hayton: the trans woman taking on the trans activists

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/df87fe47-3dd3-4f35-ac48-81f54aeb418f?shareToken=a53b2f201cdd4c204b9009b204cb1ef3

Janice neatly runs through a history of trans issues with Debbie including a discussion of AGP. An excellent read I thought and will get a wide audience as a Saturday Times Magazine article.

OP posts:
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28
LoobiJee · 03/02/2024 07:32

Thanks for the share token.

Article says this:

“Hayton has stopped using ladies’ loos, seeking out gender-neutral third spaces or, if there’s no choice, the gents.” A cynic might wonder if that’s a genuine change of heart or tactical positioning to head off a line of criticism in pursuit of media profile and book sales.

I wonder what the chances are of Janice / The Times giving same prominence to the voices of the wives with experience of these kinds of marriages?

ArabellaScott · 03/02/2024 07:41

My thoughts are with Stephanie and DH's children.

'Hayton, the son of a Cumbrian bank clerk, was three and learning to count in tens when he was first aware of the beachball. “Twenty, thirty, forty…” When Hayton reached 80, he felt an electric thrill: for some unknown reason he associated the number with the word “tights”. Already he knew women’s clothing was taboo, so he’d fish his mother’s laddered hosiery from the bin and try it on in secret. He relished any chance to cross-dress'

A three year old cross dresser, my oh my. This must be a unique situation. Especially as he was five in the other account of fishing tights out of the bin. A time travelling toddler cross dresser.

AuContraire · 03/02/2024 07:43

DH is full of shit.

Can't be arsed reading this, sorry Janice.

spartanrunnergirl · 03/02/2024 07:43

Best clear description of AGP I've read. Feel for Hayton's wife and kids who are side issues in this article. I wonder what Stephanie really thinks and feels.

EmpressaurusOfTheScathingTinsel · 03/02/2024 08:00

Since Hayton has said he doesn’t mind male pronouns, I wish Janice had used them.

I was at the ‘You’re a man!’ meeting. It was an example of how, even in some GC / feminist groups, men like Hayton get prioritised over women.

LoobiJee · 03/02/2024 08:22

but our paths have crossed before. First at an early meeting of Woman’s Place, a group set up in 2017 by left-leaning feminists to oppose Tory plans to introduce self-identification. Most welcomed a trans woman’s support, but not one lesbian academic and her friends, who screamed from the balcony, “You’re a man!””

Screamed”, eh Janice? Not “shouted” or “yelled”?

“Certainly Hayton, who now wears jeans, T-shirts and little make-up, seems to have reached the comfortably married stage with her female self.”

But Hayton knows that Hayton isn’t female. So how can Hayton have a female self? Disappointing if that’s Janice’s choice of wording.

“This, says Stephanie, was the hardest point, with Debbie distracted and self-obsessed. Meanwhile Stephanie shouldered the whole domestic load, going to parents’ evening alone so their children wouldn’t be embarrassed by Debbie. Hayton jokes that, alas for wives, “living as a woman” doesn’t involve doing more chores.”

Chortle, chortle, oh how so very amusing it is that domestic chores are for those boring old-fashioned women.

“Eventually, Stephanie asked Debbie to leave the family home, but that crisis point passed and their relationship began to improve.”

Skips over the detail of Hayton saying he would leave if Stephanie said so, and then refused to leave when she did say so.

He barely dated girls until, in his third year at Newcastle University studying astrophysics, he met Stephanie, just 19…
^^
Both evangelical Christians, they did not live together before they married aged 25 and 23, and as their wedding approached, Hayton felt he must tell Stephanie his secret. He was sweating with dread as he confessed he sometimes cross-dressed, yet she would barely recall the conversation….

In 2011, Hayton could hide her feelings no longer and told Stephanie, who was shocked. “Trans issues were not in the mainstream then,” she tells me. “And my priority was our three children, then aged nine to thirteen.” The couple agreed Hayton should not transition yet, just grow longer hair.”

Makes you wonder if that pre-marital conversation about cross-dressing was one that took place out loud.

For decades, says Hayton, transsexual women have relied upon female goodwill to use their bathrooms and changing rooms, but self-ID destroyed that precious trust. “Women were happy to take in the odd refugee from masculinity. But in the past five years it’s become a wave of colonisers, and that’s very different.””

How do you know women were happy, Debbie? Did you ask all women?

try finding a life partner as a post-operative 22-year-old trans woman attracted to females. Your dating pool is tiny. Basically you’re looking at bisexual women and many of them end up with men.”

So way the way to make sure you get access to a heterosexual sex life, offspring, and domestic support services is: you withhold the truth from the woman you are targeting until you’re confident that being honest with your spouse won’t cause you any personal disadvantage or inconvenience.

Transition often ends in divorce, yet they have managed to repurpose their marriage, sharing a room but not a bed, both now celibate. “It does work,” says Hayton of her remodelled genitalia, “but it’s not as easy. And without the testosterone in your body, you just can’t be bothered.” Both say they are bonded by love and a long shared history. Debbie notes that while she gained her female self, her wife lost the man she married. And Stephanie, feisty and tough, balks at the idea she is a passive victim, a “trans widow”. “I feel sad at times, but I’m at peace and Debbie is so much happier.”

Hayton did not gain a female self. Hayton gained a new hairstyle, clothing, media profile, and career.

OldCrone · 03/02/2024 08:27

Stephanie, feisty and tough, balks at the idea she is a passive victim, a “trans widow”.

The idea of trans widows being just passive victims is news to me. Not the impression I get at all.

I thought the term trans widow just describes a woman whose husband no longer exists because he has become a 'transwoman'. It doesn't say anything about the personality of the woman involved.

PencilsInSpace · 03/02/2024 08:39

I think I'm about done with my Times subscription.

Nordensost · 03/02/2024 08:43

Why the hell are so many women both here and in the ToL comments fawning over Hayton, and using female pronouns.

Get a grip.

Cannot believe Janice Turner has fallen. Her journalistic integrity, for not speaking the truth, has been shattered. She is as bad as Starmer with "1% of women have a penis".

CuriousAlien · 03/02/2024 08:49

Thanks for sharing, that was an interesting read, lots I didn't know.

I don't mind what pronouns Janice Turner uses, I just change them in my head as I read.

And the fact that the narrative presented is not complete doesn't bother me. It's an article promoting a memoir so I expect that. I haven't read the comments below it so can't really reflect on that.

ArabellaScott · 03/02/2024 08:56

Stephanie, feisty and tough, balks at the idea she is a passive victim, a “trans widow”. “I feel sad at times, but I’m at peace and Debbie is so much happier.”

So long as Debbie is happier, eh?

I understand not wanting to think of oneself as a victim. But in my experience victims are often enormously tough. That implied suggestion that women can avoid abuse by being 'feisty' is quite mistaken and damaging - and a subtle form of victim blaming.

Rightsraptor · 03/02/2024 08:56

Curious that the Haytons chose to relocate to Bristol, that bastion of all things trans.

TheMerryBandofPanderingShitwits · 03/02/2024 08:59

All the puff pieces in the world and DH still comes across as a selfish lying arsehole in every one.

Nordensost · 03/02/2024 09:09

LoobiJee · 03/02/2024 07:32

Thanks for the share token.

Article says this:

“Hayton has stopped using ladies’ loos, seeking out gender-neutral third spaces or, if there’s no choice, the gents.” A cynic might wonder if that’s a genuine change of heart or tactical positioning to head off a line of criticism in pursuit of media profile and book sales.

I wonder what the chances are of Janice / The Times giving same prominence to the voices of the wives with experience of these kinds of marriages?

I think Janice Turner is going to reverse the trend of the great writers Suzanne Moore and Julie Burchill and move across to the Guardian.
After this completely distasteful and tone-deaf piece of writing she truly does belong with Owen Jones.

Pigeon851 · 03/02/2024 09:14

Interesting article - thanks for sharing. I do think it's a bit unfair to say that Janice Turner has been captured and is now in the same category as OJ - come on. She's been great and doesn't have to write things that people on here exclusively agree with. Yes it's broadly sympathetic to Hayton but there's no way that article would appear in the Guardian.

I'm mostly irritated by the pic of him in washing up gloves tbh.

stealtheatingtunnocks · 03/02/2024 09:15

Is it possible Janice wrote 1500 words on “eeezaman!” And a subeditor tweaked it because of an agreement with DH’s publisher?

she’s been brilliant on gender so this seems a bit odd.

CuriousAlien · 03/02/2024 09:16

Yes @Pigeon851 the picture! What the hell was that? Imagine that photo shoot...

Pigeon851 · 03/02/2024 09:18

CuriousAlien · 03/02/2024 09:16

Yes @Pigeon851 the picture! What the hell was that? Imagine that photo shoot...

I know! I suppose we should be grateful they didn't give him a pinny and duster.

CuriousAlien · 03/02/2024 09:18

Actually the thing about the picture that I find odd was that it said so much but was just there with no comment. It reminded me of that TV piece about water companies and the man with the breast pump. Or a reference to sort of 1950s housewives. Or a sexual fetish reference.

Nordensost · 03/02/2024 09:26

@Pigeon851 as someone who came home to find their partner in my underwear I will draw the hardest of boundaries.
Janice is a seasoned enough journalist she wouldn't have a sub-editor re-writing what are important bits of her article. She could've followed suit from the Guardian writer the other week in the article re Lia Thomas and avoided pronouns altogether. But in calling Hayton a she, Stephanie being a side-note, has slapped us in the face.
It really is time to draw very hard boundaries. This 'being nice' has got us in to trouble.

(And I thought this was supposed to be a feminist board, not somewhere where it's perhaps ok to call an AGP a she and therefore satisfy his sexual fetishes).

Datun · 03/02/2024 09:27

I don't blame Janice Turner for being taken in.

A lot of people appear to have the same reaction to Hayton. I hope she reads the comments about him here, and realises, though.

And without the testosterone in your body, you just can’t be bothered.

lol. How does that work, then? What's the point of parading your fetish in public, if there's no sexual arousal?

Plus the washing-up gloves? Come on.

Debbie must be laughing up his lavender scented sleeve.

OldCrone · 03/02/2024 09:30

CuriousAlien · 03/02/2024 09:18

Actually the thing about the picture that I find odd was that it said so much but was just there with no comment. It reminded me of that TV piece about water companies and the man with the breast pump. Or a reference to sort of 1950s housewives. Or a sexual fetish reference.

Edited

The only comment relative to that picture was this:

Hayton jokes that, alas for wives, “living as a woman” doesn’t involve doing more chores.

So what are the gloves for?

Pigeon851 · 03/02/2024 09:34

Nordensost · 03/02/2024 09:26

@Pigeon851 as someone who came home to find their partner in my underwear I will draw the hardest of boundaries.
Janice is a seasoned enough journalist she wouldn't have a sub-editor re-writing what are important bits of her article. She could've followed suit from the Guardian writer the other week in the article re Lia Thomas and avoided pronouns altogether. But in calling Hayton a she, Stephanie being a side-note, has slapped us in the face.
It really is time to draw very hard boundaries. This 'being nice' has got us in to trouble.

(And I thought this was supposed to be a feminist board, not somewhere where it's perhaps ok to call an AGP a she and therefore satisfy his sexual fetishes).

You're right that I don't have that experience and I'm sorry to hear of yours.

I agree that those things wouldn't be tolerated on this board, but the Times isn't this board. We are free to disagree/agree as we see fit with what they publish. Fwiw I don't have much time for Hayton who I think flip flops as the wind blows. But I just don't think it's fair to say that Janice Turner has gone full Owen Jones on this.

CuriousAlien · 03/02/2024 09:36

@OldCrone yes true that is something of a call back. I just find that the article is played straight and yet the photo implies irony. I think perhaps the "joke" is an irony which is never explored. Pity.

Datun · 03/02/2024 09:42

OldCrone · 03/02/2024 08:27

Stephanie, feisty and tough, balks at the idea she is a passive victim, a “trans widow”.

The idea of trans widows being just passive victims is news to me. Not the impression I get at all.

I thought the term trans widow just describes a woman whose husband no longer exists because he has become a 'transwoman'. It doesn't say anything about the personality of the woman involved.

Yes it's revealing.

She is under the impression that, as long as you don't feel 'passive', then you're not being coercive controlled.

Yet he's wearing the gloves, but doesn't wash up, and she's sad, but as long as he's happy it's fine.

Trans issues were not in the mainstream then,” she tells me. “And my priority was our three children, then aged nine to thirteen.” The couple agreed Hayton should not transition yet, just grow longer hair.”

That's not what quite what the other article said. The other article said Hayton said okay I won't transition if only I can grow my hair long.

And then said he wouldn't tell anyone, but three months after he told the children, he told everyone. Hardly prioritising the children if he could only wait three months before making it public.

Can he not keep his story straight for five minutes, or is he using the negative comments after one article, to tweak the next.