Just 5 trans women in women’s jails - Inside Time article

[IwantToRetire]

The latest figures, from the Offender Equalities Annual Report, related to March 2023. In March 2022 there were 162 trans women in male jails and six in female jails. Trans women who have had their new gender legally recognised with a Gender Recognition Certificate (GRC) are not included in the figures. There were 13 prisoners with GRCs, but the report did not specify whether they were trans women or trans men.

https://insidetime.org/newsround/just-5-trans-women-in-womens-jails/

How did transwomen end up in womens prisons? There was a landmark case years ago that determined it was a breach of human rights to not allow gender autonomy in prisoners. Unfortunately the pendulum swung too far and bad decisions were made by the prison services. HMPPS are attempting to rectify those now but progress takes time!

That landmark case was the beginning. If you trace the changes, and they are the same in different western countries, it goes like this:
Transwoman with bottom surgery, gender dysphoria, is sent to prison and sues to be put in the female prison. They don't have a penis, small risk, so they get sent to womens prison. No one asked the women btw.
Next is transwoman who has not had bottom surgery but does have gender dysphoria, and wants what the other transwoman has. Sues and claims it is a breach of his human rights to demand he has mutilating surgery to be allowed to go to the womens prison. He wins and off he goes. No one questions if it is a breach of human rights of women to be forced to share with men.
Next is a self claimed transwoman, no surgery, no diagnosis, demands he is also gets what other men have and off he goes.

Now the last group is being denied female prison, but as long as you allow the first group, you will have a difficulty saying no to the second group and then the third group has a wedge in again as well.

To stop the pendulum swinging all groups must be denied.

And the proportions are also important. There are far more men in prison than women, so a small number of the former being moved in with the latter has a disproportionate effect.

In 2022, before the Bryson rethink, there were 12 TW (excluding those with a GRC) in women's prisons in Scotland. Sounds a small number, but that was 1 in 20 of the total population in women's prisons.

Oh 100%! We had an elderly alcoholic in, and a prisoner on the wing was their nephew. I was in the middle of arranging social care, when the 2 of them came to me and said social care wasn't needed because the nephew was going to care for him. And actually the whole landing supported him, got his food for him, changed his bedding for him. It was actually quite sweet to watch and made my eyes leak! I don't think most prisoners are inherently bad people, most of them are victims of their circumstances, but sadly prison environments are not therapeutic and breed fear.

If you think calling a male human being "he" is dehumanising, we have very different views of men.

There is nothing dehumanising in correctly using sex-based language. Saying "it" is dehumanising, saying "he" is perfectly fine. He might like it better if people perceived him as "she", but we can't always get what we want. I'd like to be 2" taller and 3 stone lighter, but there you are.

Oh, and we don't have enough pillows, either. And I can't increase my staffing ratios because I haven't got enough staff. And I can't move my recategorised Cat Cs on, because there are no places in the Cat C estate and all the locals are full to bursting, but James Cleverly wants to send people to prison for climbing on war memorials, creating even MORE pressure on spaces!

But who gives a toss that women are dehumanised by being used as a human shield when they are at their most vulnerable!

Nothing is going to change my mind on this thread.

If you centre women and women's rights to safety and dignity then no males will be in women's prisons.

Under any circumstances.

I cannot see a single argument for any male to be in a woman's prison that doesn't centre the male.

Nobody is arguing for men to be in female estates.

No don't lie, you are saying you would prefer that they are in trans wings but in the absence of those the ones you deem to be no safety risk should be in the women's estate.

That is arguing for SOME men to be in female estates in SOME circumstances.

@itsfinallytime I'm really worried about your reading comprehension difficulties. I have never once asserted that they should be in female estate.

I'm not going to go back through the thread and pick out where you have clearly stated that.

I've got better things to do with my afternoon.

Your position on this has been clear throughout the thread.

In your very first post on this thread, you said that the TW prisoner was appropriately placed in the female estate.

Bottom surgery or not, TW are men and do not belong in the female estate. The separate trans unit might be a solution for the very few non-sex offender / violent TW offenders, but I am sure you know about the success of the existing unit.

@itsfinallytime because it doesn't exist 😂 have the afternoon you deserve.

@RMNofTikTok thanks for your long reply.

Would you believe that at one point I wondered if you were sealioning with your question about how to keep transwomen safe? For me, centring women in this question is important for the pendulum swing back.

Without wanting to derail too much into language, Yes I disagree that "repeatedly calling a transwoman who has made a genuine effort to present as a woman a man [is] hateful."

Firstly, it can be hateful but I don't think it necessarily is. One example for me is: women who have suffered abuse and trauma at the hands of a man have the right to use male pronouns for him as a defence of their own naming of reality.

Secondly, people may choose to use pronouns exclusively in a sex based way if they do not believe gender identity exists.

Thirdly, I personally don't agree that it is helpful to quantify or qualify what "a genuine effort to present as a women" is. Who decides this? This relies on gender stereotypes and for me is regressive.

So the choice of which pronouns to use has personal and systemic consequences. Using sex-neutral language is also not always a neutral act as this is potentially biological erasure.

@PonyPatter44 an appropriate choice in that instance at that time. Things have changed since then with the ever growing numbers of TW trying to access female estates that look like men, sound like men, and for all intents and purposes should be treated by men.

Odfod, everyone can see what you have done on this thread.

You have said none violent transwomen are rightly in the female estate in the absence of transgender wings.

You have scolded women and called us pearl clutching bigots for pointing out that these people are men.

You are clearly so out of touch with reality that you either can't remember what you posted or are trying to gaslight us into believing something that is untrue. Rather like trying to gaslight that some men are women. They are not.

I mean we can ask the reverse question.

How do we keep women safe?

By making alternative provision for transwomen so there is no desire to consider placing them in female estate.

The answer is the same, though I do respect your position that you want to look at it through a female lens first.

As for passing, it's not about physical appearance, it's about the language you use, how you physically carry yourself, and how you interact with others. A man in a dress is just that. I would not accept them as a trans woman if they were behaving like a male socialised person.

@itsfinallytime

I find your projecting comment about gaslighting curious and ironic.

The court case was argued on the basis not of 'gender autonomy' or for a person who had had genital surgery, but because the NHS service refused to plan surgery for someone who was not 'living as a woman' and that prisoner could only do that in the female estate, because that's how female prisoners live - with other women.

I can't help wondering if the NHS service originally thought that was a surefire way of not having to do the surgery. But more likely they weren't thinking that carefully.

The whole idea of 'living as a woman' is of course sexist. Here is where feminism does completely agree with the trans rights movement that this sort of gatekeeping is usually based on sexist and outdated thinking. If you're gender critical you perhaps go on to consider that the entire basis of physical medical treatment for gender dysphoria, originating as it did in the highly sexist 30s/40s/50s, is based on sexism too.

@RMNofTikTok I'm not just talking about physical appearance either.

There is no way for a man to use language as a woman, to carry himself as a woman or to interact with others as a woman. He can act as himself and if he has to make an effort then he is performing what he thinks is womanhood.

That's what I'm saying.

So in general they keep men safe.

Carry on and treat more men safely. As tw are men, you can keep them safe. How is not my problem.

I'm aghast at the claim that no female prisoner has complained about a male prisoner being in female prisons (because they "don't have time"?!)

Calling people 'it' would be dehumanising. calling people by the pronouns that correctly sex someone is correctly sexing them. It is not dehumanising.

RMNofTikTok · Today 10:17

And prior to the changes in policy I could completely understand why people were outraged. Obviously I can only go on the female estate that I worked in, but I've never known anyone with a penis go to female estate in reality.

What about Karen White? Even they now say that transw shouldn't be in women's prisons and they is a multiple rapist.

WTF

we dont even know who the fuck you are talking about. Just some random Male prisoner kept in the female estate. It could literally be any man.

Report what, to who?

Christ alive I'm hardly shaking in my fucking boots here.

It's a MAN if you dont like correctly sexing people, dont post.