Just 5 trans women in women’s jails - Inside Time article

[IwantToRetire]

The latest figures, from the Offender Equalities Annual Report, related to March 2023. In March 2022 there were 162 trans women in male jails and six in female jails. Trans women who have had their new gender legally recognised with a Gender Recognition Certificate (GRC) are not included in the figures. There were 13 prisoners with GRCs, but the report did not specify whether they were trans women or trans men.

https://insidetime.org/newsround/just-5-trans-women-in-womens-jails/

Oh and I have no experience of prison. But I also have no experience of competitive swimming but I am pretty pissed of that women and girls are expected to compete against men.

I don’t think not having direct experience of a system should exclude people from being able to express their worries.

@RMNofTikTok

Because people that have been to prison or have worked in prison do not waste their time pearl clutching over nonsense like this

If you met a woman currently in prison who said they found the presence of a trans woman on their wing to be upsetting / frightening etc due to trauma, would you tell them they were pearly clutching?

Would you tell them that you think most of the other inmates don't mind so they should get over it and stop pearl clutching?

Well, give me more information.

What is this hypothetical trans prisoner in prison for?

What is their risk status?

Is this hypothetical woman forced to share a cell/spur/landing/block/shower/exercise yard with them?

Why does this hypothetical woman find it upsetting?

Yeah but there's expressing your concerns in a curious way, then there's outright being bigoted. There's also a massive difference between competitive swimmers sharing a shower with transwomen and competing against them, to a transwoman being in a single cell in prison.

I agree with PonyPatter that appeasement and alliance formation (which may be positive or negative) is a common motivation for gift giving and resource sharing in primate social structures with unequal power dynamics. It can be a sign of affection (in itself potentially problematic in this scenario) and friendship, but is definitely not proof of it.

I really wouldn't class styling each others hair as gifting. Unless you have equal concerns that prison barbers are also gifting? Or is this again just moral panic and painting non violent trans prisoners to be folk devil?

https://open.spotify.com/episode/4kiybGqqnUZjRMWDmYLjOF?si=FAnJwi_GRDGz-WRflhn6cA

I think this (and others from Paddy O'Gorman's series) could be worth a listen of you are interested to hear lived experiences RMN?

I notice you didn't bother addressing my question about power dynamics and the tendency to fawn. Have you ever seen that behaviour on any of the female wings and VP units you know about?

What power do you believe a non violent trans prisoner has?

Fawning? Really? Now I know for certain you either haven't set foot in a prison for a very long time, or certainly haven't spent time on a wing for a very long time, so if you do work in a prison you are likely to be a pen pusher. The prisoners are too busy either getting high or trying to complete suicide. Heaven forbid we promote friendships and a sense a community to reduce either of those things eh?

I will certainly have a listen at some point today 😊

I've already stated that I do not believe that transwomen with a history of violent offences have any place in female prisons. But they are equally incredibly vulnerable in male estates, they are likely to be victims of sexual offences when placed on VP wings with sex offenders. So what is the solution you are suggesting?

Transmen are never placed in male estates due to the risk to them.

You'd think it was so dysphoric for them that they'd be unable to manage, yet somehow they cope. Strange how male transgenders cannot do the same.

It is also odd that all those politicians and influencers squeaking that transwomen simply MUST be placed with women are not saying that tramsnmen must be placed with the men.

You'd think it was so dysphoric for them that they'd be unable to manage, yet somehow they cope. Strange how male transgenders cannot do the same.

I think the number of gay women that are masc presenting in female estate means they don't stand out too much. Women are also far more accepting. However in male estate transwomen stand out like a sore thumb and other prisoners either treat them worse than animals or rape them. They can't cope because of the real risks to them.

We discriminate against males in single sex spaces, to keep women safe.

You find that bigoted.

I find your beliefs bigoted against vulnerable women.

We discriminate against males in single sex spaces, to keep women safe.

You find that bigoted.

I find your beliefs bigoted against vulnerable women.

Again it's not the notion that spaces might need to be single sex. Id happily debate that all day. It's problematic deliberately misgendering people, THAT is what is bigoted.

@RMNofTikTok please do report my post that expressed bigoted views to MNHQ and it will be deleted.

Sex matters, whether that is in prison, the swimming pool, changing rooms, school toilets, Guide camps, the work place, on a hospital ward, on trains, etc,etc…..

Being honest about the sex of a trans woman is essential though.

Trans women are not a subset of women they are male.

Telling the truth about the sex of a person when the subject is whether it is appropriate to incarcerate women with some males is essential.

I find it astonishing that you can work in the prison estate and call women who tell the truth about the sex of a person bigoted for doing so.

Why would I report it? That seems like a rather strange thing to request.

Being honest about the sex of a trans woman is essential though.

I didn't realise that people were confused about the biological sex of transwomen. I thought that was something that was clearly obvious, oh silly me.

@RMNofTikTok it would not be a strange thing to do as it would be breaking MN guidelines. My point being please identify where I have been bigoted?

I didn't realise that people were confused about the biological sex of transwomen. I thought that was something that was clearly obvious, oh silly me.

It's obfuscatory language. Up to a third of people in a recent poll thought that "trans woman" meant a female person identifying as a man. So your assumption is misguided. They are male, and that needs to be clear.

So what's misgendering then, and why is it such a problem for you?

I mean it's just absurd that you are more worried about people offending these males incarcerated in the women's estate than you are about the safety and dignity of the women they have been forced upon.

It's just the same old putting the males first when it comes down to it.

Women are always the bottom of the heap.

Bingo card out, vipers….

Pearl clutching.
Bigots.
Misgendering.
TW are so vulnerable.

So predictable and repetitive - although we have so far been spared “cis”.

Believe it or not I'm gender critical and actually hate being prefixed with cis 😂

I think it's wrong. Just because you have changed your gender doesn't mean anything. Especially if they haven't transitioned fully.