Just 5 trans women in women’s jails - Inside Time article

[IwantToRetire]

The latest figures, from the Offender Equalities Annual Report, related to March 2023. In March 2022 there were 162 trans women in male jails and six in female jails. Trans women who have had their new gender legally recognised with a Gender Recognition Certificate (GRC) are not included in the figures. There were 13 prisoners with GRCs, but the report did not specify whether they were trans women or trans men.

https://insidetime.org/newsround/just-5-trans-women-in-womens-jails/

A propos of nothing, Felix has been quiet recently, wonder if the their job has been keeping them busy or maybe they’ve moved into a different career.

Bigoted is another word that is completely denuded of meaning.

'GC' as they come for the bingo card!

Peal clutching

Nonsense

And men running around exchanging hair accessories with women.

<ticks bingo card. Hides yet another thread.>

Don’t forget that we are all bigots!

A previous poster asked if we'd been in prison. No, I haven't. My mother was, though, and she started talking to me about it to me when I was 7. You're off your rocker if you're going to assure me my mother thought mixed-sex prisons would be great!

Here's an entire page of incarcerated women explaining that making the women's prisons mixed-sex does affect them. Are they scotch mist, perhaps?

Women in prison speak out

"Of course you are 😁 and if you are, you are part of the problem I'm afraid. Those of us that actually give a shit are campaigning for more trans wings, not to lock vulnerable people up with sex offenders on VP wings."

What does VP in VP wings stand for if not vulnerable prisoner? Why should vulnerable people not be on the VP wing? Also MoJ own stats show that there is a disproportionately high percentage of sex offenders amongst trans identifying prisoners.

Providing trans wings would likely see a massive drop in prison-onset gender dysphoria however.

So a woman cannot just say NO to sharing anything at all with a tw?

You do know how consent works yes?

In Scotland there are roughly 282 women in prison.

There is one women-only prison in Scotland – HMP Cornton Vale – which holds the majority of female prisoners (219). Some women are also held at HMP Edinburgh (96), HMP Greenock (53), and HMP Grampian (49)

One male is too many.

There is or was one transman in the male estate in Scotland.

Huge numbers of them in prison! What's total population of prisons: 70-80000…?

Men need to be in men's prison.
And GRC nonsense needs to stop.

Humans can not change sex.

Humans also are very unlikely to change their behaviour patterns.

Unfortunately, there have been assaults and no change. A death might do it, but I wouldn't rely on even that opening sufficient eyes.

What is this hypothetical trans prisoner in prison for?

Doesn't matter.

What is their risk status?

Doesn't matter.

And this is the problem with the risk assessments used to put them there. It's not about the man. It's about the women.

Virtually all women in prison have experienced male violence, and a significant number will have a lasting trauma response to men simply because they are men. It doesn't matter how 'safe' the man may be in theory, it is inhumane to subject women to constant fear simply to appease men who want to be there - for whatever reason. Women in prison are entitled to psychological as well as physical safety. And to dignity. This has been understood for 2 centuries.

Many men in prison are vulnerable - old men, young men, small men, disabled men... That's no reason to put them in the women's estate. My DP is kind, gentle, slightly built, wouldn't dream of attacking anybody, I've never heard him so much as raise his voice (except to be heard when we're on different floors) and he's about the last person I could imagine ending up in prison, but if he were caught up in something like the Post Office mess and ended up in prison for an entirely non-violent offence he shouldn't be in the women's estate. Because he is a man.

And doing someone's hair is about the most primal gift there is. All primates do it.

So a woman cannot just say NO to sharing anything at all with a tw?

You do know how consent works yes?

They can say no. That is why these theoretical conversations are so full of pearl clutching.

It doesn't matter how 'safe' the man may be in theory, it is inhumane to subject women to constant fear simply to appease men who want to be there - for whatever reason.

How many female prisoners sharing a landing with a transwoman live in constant fear? What evidence do you have that transwomen in prison cause constant fear to women?

Men need to be in men's prison.
And GRC nonsense needs to stop.

I agree re GRCs.

As for prisons, how do you suggest keeping TW prisoners safe in male prisons?

What does VP in VP wings stand for if not vulnerable prisoner? Why should vulnerable people not be on the VP wing? Also MoJ own stats show that there is a disproportionately high percentage of sex offenders amongst trans identifying prisoners.

Vulnerable prisoner also = sex offender in prison. They are housed on VP wings. 20% of adult male prisoners are sex offenders. Are you claiming this % is higher for transwomen eg that more than 20% of transwomen in prison are there for sexual offences?

A lot of these prisons are not based in uk, so whilst their stories are sad they are irrelevant as they do not fit the uk justice system (or what's left of it).

@RMNofTikTok according to the report, in March 2023 there were 210 transwomen in men's prisons in England, Wales and Scotland. Of course it doesn't say if they were safe. I still don't understand why this isn't a men's problem.

They can say no.

Really? Every woman on the wing/block is asked before a TW is moved in, and every woman subsequently placed there? In a way that genuinely allows them to give or withhold free and informed consent - bearing in mind both popular misunderstandings about TW and the power dynamics of staff asking prisoners questions to which they may not like the answers?

How many female prisoners sharing a landing with a transwoman live in constant fear?

How many would you find acceptable? For me, the answer is none.

What evidence do you have that transwomen in prison cause constant fear to women?

There have been plenty of interviews posted on this board. I'm sure you can find them.

As for prisons, how do you suggest keeping TW prisoners safe in male prisons?

The same way other vulnerable men are kept safe.

How do you suggest keeping transwomen safe?

Why are the methods currently used for those 210 not suitable for the remaining handful?

I think you are misunderstanding the concept of "vulnerable male prisoners". Male prisoners on VP wings are vulnerable because they are largely sex offenders. How do you keep famine presenting prisoners safe on a wing of sex offenders?

It is very unusual for transwomen to be on general population in female estate. Their location is specifically picked, usually with consent with other prisoners with whom they will be housed.

Most interviews I have listened to come from prisoners that were not based in the uk, due to differences in set up they are not entirely relevant. How many British female prisoners are you aware of that felt unsafe because a transwoman was on their wing?

I would ask the question that @NoBinturongsHereMate has just asked. That's what I'm mostly curious about right now.

I've given you several categories who are vulnerable regardless of their offence. How are they kept safe?

It is very unusual for transwomen to be on general population in female estate. Their location is specifically picked, usually with consent with other prisoners with whom they will be housed.

If they do that for 210 TW, why can't they do it for another 5?