Just 5 trans women in women’s jails - Inside Time article

[IwantToRetire]

The latest figures, from the Offender Equalities Annual Report, related to March 2023. In March 2022 there were 162 trans women in male jails and six in female jails. Trans women who have had their new gender legally recognised with a Gender Recognition Certificate (GRC) are not included in the figures. There were 13 prisoners with GRCs, but the report did not specify whether they were trans women or trans men.

https://insidetime.org/newsround/just-5-trans-women-in-womens-jails/

This has turned into a very interesting thread. This is one the many places that we have substantial in-person testimony both from prison staff and prisoners that having trans women in female prison is traumatising and dangerous for women.
Its not really up for debate. There have been too many women who have whistle-blown. The only question is whether they are believed or if you care.
I'm guessing this poster was either junior member of staff, not one at all or one of the sadly many people who write off women raising complaints as transphobic.
It's impossible to acknowledge there has ever been a problem when you refuse to believe it when it's pointed out.
No idea if this poster ever did work in a prison, but it seems like a damn good thing they're not now

But to get back to the stats, I seem to recall there was a problem with gathering stats some years ago because trans women were sometimes just being recorded as 'female' so there was no way statistically to distinguish them from actual female prisoners so it does make me wonder how accurate the numbers are.

@InvisibleBuffy I'm not writing people's views off as transphobic at all. I think it's brilliant that mumsnet allow these kinds of debates. As stated before, I am gender critical and I am inherently against the inclusion of transwomen in women's sports, refuges, etc. I'm also inherently aware that transwomen are louder as a population group and are hell bent in taking up space in female only spaces, whilst transmen largely just get on with it, and I feel this is because transwomen have been socialised as men.

What I'm interested in is how we can keep transwomen who have not committed violent crimes safe in prison.

And I really disagree with this, stats for transwomen offending need to be included in male stats because they have male pattern offending.

So either transwomen are more likely to be sex offender OR sex offenders are more likely to claim a trans identity. (I favour the latter)

Oh the latter is definitely correct! At the male prison I worked in 10% of sex offenders claimed to be transwomen! I think any attempts by sex offenders to transition once sentenced need to be ignored.

What I'm interested in is how we can keep transwomen who have not committed violent crimes safe in prison.

By assessing them in the male estate and treating them in the male estate like all the other men who might be at risk in the male estate. If it can be done with other men it can be done with men who claim a trans identity, penis or not.

By assessing them in the male estate and treating them in the male estate like all the other men who might be at risk in the male estate. If it can be done with other men it can be done with men who claim a trans identity, penis or not.

And that's exactly what I suggested... transgender wings.

And that's exactly what I suggested... transgender wings.

So you agree that Mr Accessorize should be moved out of the female estate too?

So you agree that Mr Accessorize should be moved out of the female estate too?

I think if we can safely accommodate them in male estate, absolutely!

Mr Accessorize 😂

So why do you think he should move out? So you don’t think his presence in the female estate is problem free then?

And why should women put up with him because of failings of the management of the male estate if it’s deemed he can’t be safely accommodated?

So why do you think he should move out? So you don’t think his presence in the female estate is problem free then?

And why should women put up with him because of failings of the management of the male estate if it’s deemed he can’t be safely accommodated?

You know, I really find the persistent deliberate misgendering of individuals problematic and this is what comes across as bigoted. We can use they/them we do not need to refer to transwomen as he/him. It appears vexatious.

I do not believe this individual person was problematic in female estate, no. But as someone correctly said, when you start making exceptions it's easier for the rules to become bendier.

@RMNofTikTok

What I'm interested in is why you think that the safety and dignity of women should be put at risk to keep these males safe?

Why are women secondary to the safety of males?

How you can claim to be gender critical and hold these fundamentally anti women views baffles me.

You have told us he is a man. I use correct sex pronouns. I do not believe in gender identity so I am not deliberately misgendering because I am not a believer, in the same way I can’t be guilty of blasphemy.

Why do the rules become bendier? Because it comes down to subjective assessment, doesn’t it? You think this man was ok. You can’t possibly entertain the possibility that there might have been women locked up with him who didn’t. Therefore people like you should certainly have no say in the subjective assessment of male prisoners. So you’re right, it’s best not to have bendy rules because people like you could easily bend them to your own perspective.

What I'm interested in is why you think that the safety and dignity of women should be put at risk to keep these males safe?

Why are women secondary to the safety of males?

How you can claim to be gender critical and hold these fundamentally anti women views baffles me.

@itsfinallytime because I have said, multiple times, that I support the formation of more transgender wings. I believe these wings for transwomen should be within male estates, negating the need for vulnerable transwomen to be housed in female estates.

Right but in the meantime you're quite fine with women being thrown under the bus to keep these males safe?

You have told us he is a man. I use correct sex pronouns. I do not believe in gender identity so I am not deliberately misgendering because I am not a believer, in the same way I can’t be guilty of blasphemy.

And you have the right to be gender critical. However you can choose to use neutral pronouns, and your refusal to tells me that you are not gender critical, just transphobic, because of your persistence in this. Note that I have not used female pronouns to discuss transwomen once.

Right but in the meantime you're quite fine with women being thrown under the bus to keep these males safe?

No im not fine with it, I've asked everyone to come up with solutions and we keep circling around to the idea I suggested. What are you expecting me to say? That's it's five to throw someone with breast in with sex offenders? Nobody in their right mind would think that is ok.

Note that I have not used female pronouns to discuss transwomen once.

Your thank you cookies are in the post.

Failure to acknowledge the sex of people being locked up with women is anti-women. Forcing people to use neutral pronouns for a known male is coercion.

Well the solution IS NOT to put women at harm.

Which is what you are suggesting.

As others have said there are plenty of vulnerable males in the male prison estate who don't have special entitlements.

The fact that some 'identify' as women doesn't make them the problem of vulnerable women to solve.

Coercion 😂 you know that has a very specific legal meaning, right?

Likewise, repeatedly misgendering people may be a hate crime. Are you comfortable committing a hate crime?

Yep! This a legal not biological distinction. What it’s saying is there is an indefinite number of trans women in female prisons.

What crime is being committed that is aggravated by hate?

Oh no someone is upset that we are correctly sexing males again!

Whilst claiming to be Gender Critical !

It could fall under protection from harassment act 1997 because you are referring to an individual rather than a group. If you were talking about a group of transwomen being male, that it is fine, but you are referring to one individual who is not theoretical.

In reality, I would not report it. But think very carefully before you start throwing around legal terms like coercion because it just makes you look a bit daft.