Thank you: Debbie Hayton in the Mail

[Needmoresleep]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13011839/I-went-agonising-operation-thought-woman-finally-make-happy-devastating-revelation.html

Might not have been the best of Photoshoots to let the wife sit there in shoes that were her husbands size though!

Might not have been the best of Photoshoots to let the wife sit there in shoes that were her husbands size though!

We don't know that they would have fitted DH. It's not unusual for DM photos to feature people in horrendously unsuitable outfits that don't fit them.

However, it is imperative that this nuance is handled with strong guardrails. If Debbie wants recognition, this can be achieved without it resulting in harm as long as it's handled well.

It's not being handled. No one is handling it.

The only people with any kind of dissent is a handful of women who see through him.

Debbie is writing a book that people will pay to read. And Debbie writes articles that people will pay to read.

Debbie is controlling the entire message.

Even women who totally understand what AGP is, are taken in by him.

No! 😄

The navy shoes he's wearing look too small for him. I wonder if the shoes were originally the other way around and someone thought red stilettos on him was a bit 'too much' so they swapped them.

Clymene transcribed the interview! It’s in 4 parts.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4053058-Debbie-and-Stephanie-Hayton-interview-transcript?reply=100925270

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4053058-Debbie-and-Stephanie-Hayton-interview-transcript?reply=100925438

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4053058-Debbie-and-Stephanie-Hayton-interview-transcript?reply=100925534

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4053058-Debbie-and-Stephanie-Hayton-interview-transcript?reply=100925597

It's not being handled. No one is handling it.

Indeed.

All I took away from that is: "He's alright, Jack"...

Oh well.

Someone needs to let him know women wear shirts and trousers too... and don't feel any less worthy of existing for it.

Or a housecoat, like the era of Nora Batty. No ‘tremors’ from that though, I suppose. Mind you, what do I know about the the workings of the associations of such minds? Maybe a house coat would result in ‘phwoar’.

Helen Joyce writes books about trans that people will pay to read, she also writes articles that people will pay to read.

So what's the difference?

The more voices to come out against the ideology the better (Hayton's message "Trans women are men" is a good one). But I think for many this is just about labels and theoretical matters because they only want certain voices heard.

I can read articles written by other types of addicts (like drink and drug) and respect the content and that the person has given a first-hand account on it. That is not praise and that is not indulging the person. I don't go around and say "I don't care about your experience I only want to hear your wife's opinion on it".

One crucial difference is that Helen Joyce does not have an ex partner and children who have been severely negatively affected by the behaviour she is promoting and being paid to talk about.

The salient point, for me, would be the message that Hayton is putting across.

It's really not much of a commitment to say transwomen are men. Everyone knows that. It's not news.

Eddie Izzard says it every time he wants a male role.

What is news is a) that AGP is quite widespread and is the driving force behind transactivism. And b) that it's a result of watching sissy porn and that subjugated women are required for it to exist.

When you look at other AGP men quite happy to say that a woman is someone with blank, blank eyes and an expectant asshole or that being treated like a piece of meat is hot, that's a world away from the impression that Debbie Hayton wants to give.

There is that of course!

And my point was less about the credentials of people who write words that other people pay to read, and more that it is they who control the narrative. As a response to bonfire ladies post about wanting the narrative to be controlled.

Obviously I agree with the narrative in Helen's case and disagree with it in Debbie's. But that wasn't the point I was making.

I can read articles written by other types of addicts (like drink and drug) and respect the content…I don't go around and say "I don't care about your experience I only want to hear your wife's opinion on it".

My life has been profoundly influenced by other people's addictions.

I often wish we heard more from families about the impact of addictions on them. It would help to have an evidence-base so people can make informed judgments on the social push to #BeKind and endlessly supportive no matter what the cost or impact on others.

Victim impact in a recent court hearing. (Very sensitive topic: mother whose addiction is argued to have underpinned her tolerance of SA of her child and who has encouraged them to ask for probation for the abuser because she wants him home, paying the bills.)

He was also under the impression that the size of a woman's breasts denote her social standing amongst her peers. And that bigger breasted women are higher up the social hierarchy.

WTAF?!? That’s insane. It’s a very male perspective on what women’s lives are about.

In all seriousness what is the point of the “specialist” psychiatrist? All it seems they do is say “you think you’re a woman? Ok off you pop”. How do you only think about what it means to be a woman years after surgery? How does a psychiatrist working in this field know nothing about AGP?

DH, like so many men, serves DH and that’s it.
Being in the rare position of being trans and having self reflected (up to a point) he has carved himself a position to bring in attention and an egotistical sense of being a good guy.

Yes male thinking, but a little bizarre in a middle-aged man, who's been married, had children, and taught in a school!

To remain so ignorant of the lives of real women takes some doing.

IME it’s fairly typical for men to be ignorant of women’s lives, in as much as their needs are met (or not) and that’s the important thing.
In DH’s case, and many other TW, it’s more striking as for a group of people who claim to be us, they sure miss the fucking point!

All my sympathies are with his poor wife and children. I hope his wife can extract herself from this toxic porn-soaked man.

"If back then I had properly understood the inner drivers that had gripped me since early childhood"

Early childhood?

What does that mean? It's a fetish that, from my understanding, requires quite a lot of work to become established.

Is he trying to say he had a sexual fetish in early childhood?

That little children are capable of sexual fetishes?

Clearly, ultimate validation of their "womanhood" is different for different men.

Some like:

• Winning medals in women's sporting events
• Getting a job specifically advertised as being for women only, heading a rape crisis centre.
• Being housed in a women's prison whilst awaiting sentencing for rape
• Joining the WI and being featured in their magazine
• Being named "Woman of the Year"
• Being accepted as a sexual partner by a Lesbian/getting called a Lesbian

So it's not really that surprising that for some men the ultimate challenge to be validated is some level of

• acceptance by gender critical feminists, to speak on this topic and get retweets and praise from women who withhold it from other trans identifying men.

I think we need to be aware of this.

But I too had initial relief that men with trans identities could apparently see the problems with GI too and that they were visible proof that the GC movement wasn't anti-trans. And some level of openness about what drives it is useful.

But once you see how much male privilege these special men still enjoy you can't unsee the manipulation and conquest of female spaces.

Picture the scene: a stranger is trying to find me in a crowded room. Without knowing who I am, they ask for directions from a mutual friend. ‘I’m looking for Debbie Hayton.’
‘Ah, Debbie!’ comes the reply. ‘He is the tall man with the grey hair by the bookcase.’
My friend’s response might have been scientifically accurate, but it would probably not have been much use.
Of course, they could have been told: ‘You see the person over by the bookcase with the grey hair who could be taken for a woman? That’s Debbie.’ But how realistic is that every time I’m pointed out in a crowd?
The simplest reply is, of course, what generally happens: ‘She’s the tall woman with the grey hair…’
Integrity matters — I am just one person and the same person in all contexts, a male transsexual.

Why in this scenario wasnt there an option to refer to him as a TW, or a male transsexual? Why did he think they'd be confusion discribing him as a man?

Remember this is the man who supposedly wants to promote the idea that men cannot become women, but he cannot envisage people seeing him as anything but a woman.

Hayton wants to become known for speaking out about trans issues, but also seemingly doesnt want others to mention that he is trans or a man.

Two paragraphs I want to bring together as they contain what seems to me to be a paradox:

"Forums for transitioners were one click away from highly sexualised websites that peddled transvestite porn. I immersed myself in this community and soaked up the group-think. No longer did I yearn to be the opposite sex; I thought I really was the opposite sex... Not surprisingly, I became more and more mentally unwell."

”Detransition would reverse that process, and in real life, where sexed bodies matter, I have no wish to do so. I fear a return of the mental health catastrophe that drove me to transition in the first place.”

I suspect he’s still not being completely honest with himself. He’s clear in the first paragraph that his mental health catastrophe occurred because he allowed himself to wander down that mental pathway and got involved with hyper sexualised men encouraging him to embrace a delusion. There’s no reason why the delusion he describes would recur. It’s an excuse, no more, no less.

I’m not sure how much of a sexual kick a man can have after insert correct surgical term starting with c that I am not allowed to use here. Indeed, I understand that is part of the problem with going the whole hog as the surgery actually prevents the desired effect from occurring.

It’s desperately sad though. Poor Stephanie and children. He was probably a fairly decent man who gave into temptation and now everyone else has to live with the results. I hope that, if she wants to, Stephanie can find a way to break free.

If you are reading this, Stephanie, there are many of us who would support you.

I’d like to think that at some point Stephanie will find her way to Trans Widows Voices.

There must be some group somewhere who get off on rollers, flowery overalls & wrinkled stockings…

Totally missing the point but his wife is incredibly beautiful.