Thank you: Debbie Hayton in the Mail

[Needmoresleep]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13011839/I-went-agonising-operation-thought-woman-finally-make-happy-devastating-revelation.html

Personally, I seriously doubt it.

I believe Debbie is trying to carve out a career as the reasonable voice of transgenderism, and making being honest about his fetish into a virtue.

I've seen people, who are very aware of how manipulation works, analyse what he writes and it's startling obvious once you look through that lens.

I don't believe a man with AGP could fail to be misogynistic. It's baked in.

Mmn.

I used to have some sympathy for those who before the TQ+ lobby emerged, just quietly used women's facilities, because that genie is never going to go back in the bottle. But then those men were no less exploitative of women and no less exerting sex based power and entitlement than the TQ+ lobby has: they were just quieter, politer and less aggressive about it. The behaviour on examination was still wrong, and women have woken up to this and won't be up for being used in this way again. This is a good thing.

Yes it is 'useful' to have the general public informed about the aspect of this that the lobby is so frightened of them understanding that the monitors here frantically delete any mention of it. But the question is still there and getting larger all the time, and better known by the public and establishment all the time, why should it be appropriate for men to use non consenting women in their sexual expression and sexual experiences as if women are just walking therapeutic resources without lives of their own?

And what does it say about the ethics and behaviour and appropriacy of someone who would use others in this way?

And why on earth would we be seeking to tie women into coerced co operation with this in law with punishment for refusing or even protesting it, outside of some insane batshit misogynist, totalitarian and rather sexually questionable society? Is this something decent, progressive people really think is justifiable?

And of course, if it was, it would not need to be deleted in a panic.

I used to be in the position of thinking DH’s position was a positive step for women. Someone from the opposite side who agreed with some of the GC position, especially on self ID.
But then I read more about DH and in particular listened to the voices of Transwidows especially TinselAngel through her incredible support threads and website. And I realised DH is not an ally. Not truly. DH wants the position that suits him. Wants the special status of being the ‘accepted’ type of ‘transwoman.’ As far as I know DH continues to use women’s spaces and as others have said has not come out to say the guidance he wrote for schools is wrong.

While acknowledging AGP as an entity and the driving force behind his transition is a positive thing until DH says (and does) stop using women’s spaces and expects men to accept him in male spaces as a different sort of man then the only difference between him and other TRAs is in where they decide women should be allowed to draw the line on who uses women’s spaces. The boot of the patriarchy is still on us holding us down, they just differ on where to put it.

And the ‘wonderful compromise’ of some men who think it want to be women using women’s spaces is not wonderful. No males in female spaces. At all.

And for the monitor/MNHQ DH says he is happy to have make pronouns and openly discuss his AGP fetish.

Bringing AGP out into the open has to be useful. Grayson Perry, I think, has acknowledged similar but has never claimed to be a woman.

Transvestitism has been a thing through the ages. With an ear worm of "See Emily Play". Denying this and pushing everything into a catchall Transgender will not help the mental distress of people with AGP, their families or society. It appears that for Debbie, surgery was not a solution and they are now trapped in a no-person's land. Better for AGP to be acknowledged, and discussed and sensible societal boundaries to be developed. Wear what you want, but you remain a man, and women's spaces are to be protected. Better understanding is the answer, not surgery or hormones.

Better acknowledgement that some people's sexuality (not gender identity) is focussed on themselves will also allow push back to those middle aged blokes who start pushing to the front of the queue for the ladies loo. I could suggest a few examples but assume Justine would prefer that I didn't.

Good discussion here just listening now….

Like others, I was brought up to speed about all this by tinselangel.

Every single transwidow says the same. that these men are highly manipulative, and almost exclusively self-serving. Debbie included.

It's also noted, over and over, that many people give far more house room to the opinion of men like Debbie Hayton, rather than the women who are married to them. Thereby showing exactly what sex people think they are.

DH was the topic of one of the most interesting and eye-opening threads that influenced many on FWR a while back.

This thread has been astonishing. I thought the scales had fallen from my eyes several months ago and realise now the scales had only fallen from the scales. The process of burrowing down beneath the layers of gas lighting, compromising, desire to be kind and inclusive that have clouded the arguments and caused people to find these issues confusing is really a journey in understanding how massively the world is run by men, for men. I thought I knew that, but I didn’t really have a clue. I rarely post but I read avidly and am spreading the word in real life. Every single person I have spoken to about the implications of self ID gets it immediately. They just find it very hard to believe that the govt, the BBC, schools, the NHS, the prison service, the Girl Guides, political parties, sports bodies, local councils, psychologists have all abandoned rational belief and scientific knowledge and think men are actually women “because they say so”.

https://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womensrights/3364094-Debbie-Hayton-in-the-Times

Also, an interesting comment from Datun (of course).

You look at the handful of men with gender dysphoria and how to include them, and wish, with all your heart, that it could be that simple again."
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womensrights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me?messages=100&pg=1

This. Impossible to imagine a female teacher getting away with such a public discussion of her sex life.

It is gross. So gross.

My main beef with gender identity ideology is its effects on children and the erosion of safeguarding.

So I don't think Hayton is a useful "ally", even if I agree with some of his ideas in the abstract. Any teacher who talks about his sex life in a way that his students can read/hear goes straight into the Creepy category.

Creepy is what we're trying to combat in the first place.

I believe I've wised up a bit since then 😊

I've yet to come across any man with gender dysphoria who wouldn't regard as homophobic, or sexist, at best.

He told the children he taught to call him Miss

This has always bothered me. What were the children told? Are they allowed to think he is "a man who prefers to be perceived as a woman"? Are they punished if they don't go along with it?

I believe I've wised up a bit since then 😊

I've yet to come across any man with gender dysphoria who wouldn't regard as homophobic, or sexist, at best.

No, you were being clear-sighted and compassionate but firm! Your whole comment was instructive and influenced lots of us. I thought it was an excellent summation back in 2018 and it holds up well to describe the process for many in 2024. (I agree with your observation about the men with gender dysphoria. I'd be tempted to add that a number seem to have a flair for the manipulative.)

Whole comment.

Yes, peak trans is meant to invoke the image of a hill.

So people might start in the foothills wondering what on earth women are talking about, why is it so important?

Then they begin to question. Still not sure, because up until now, they didn't see any problem. Why not be nice? What's the big deal?

Then they start to understand the concepts. Sometimes they still waver, because this all feels like it's happening somewhere else. Online, or not really affecting them. And anyway, feminists have a downer on men, so it's unsurprising they're cross. And, honestly, I know a transwoman and she's absolutely delightful.

Then they read about a rapist being transferred to a female prison. So what, one news story. Are you saying all transwomen are rapists?!

Then they read about the woman who asked for a female HCP and got a man. Oh well, a little uncomfortable, but still, what's the big deal? Then they read that the woman was called a transphobic bigot for objecting.

Hmmm, well that's a bit off. I may not mind a man doing my smear test, but I can understand women who do. It's not really bigoted.

At this point you have advanced a few hundred yards up the hill.

Then a sports story is mentioned on here. A mediocre male weightlifter suddenly winning awards by competing as a woman.

Oh, whatever, I don't like sport anyway.

Then another one. Then someone in cycling, fell running, roller derby, football, cricket, golf.

Then suddenly it appears to be less about sport, and more about women being disadvantaged.

The crampons come out and you advance another few hundred yards up the hill.

Then you notice that a 19-year-old boy has been elected as labour's women's officer. Oh well, he probably feels like a woman inside. That's gender dysphoria, right?

Except he starts to compile a secret list of all women who disagree with him to get them ousted from the party. Despite his remit being to include as many women as possible in the party. Claims he can get pregnant in that biology is irrelevant.

Then you start to notice intimidating tactics against women. Meetings to discuss the upcoming law change are targetted, a 60-year-old woman is hit at speakers corner. Venues pull out, peoples jobs are threatened, they are doxxed online, they are reported to the police for disagreeing.

You scramble up towards the peak of the hill.

Then someone tells you about autogynephilia, and all the men's rights activists flocking to the trans movement. You realise that it is actually true that the government is legislating to legitimise a fetish.

You peak. You look back down the hill and can't believe you ever stood at the bottom.

Then you read of 2 transwomen, one of whom has been asked to speak at the Women's March. Who claims that being treated like a piece of meat by men is sexy and objectification is hot. And because they are woman, they speak on behalf of women. And the other one who claims that women are allowed to go to the Women's March, as long as they don't talk about their reproductive systems. You know, the very basis of women's oppression. Because it excludes men. The ones who are doing the oppressing.

And you peak all over again.

This keeps going.

You look at the handful of men with gender dysphoria and how to include them, and wish, with all your heart, that it could be that simple again.

He was also under the impression that the size of a woman's breasts denote her social standing amongst her peers. And that bigger breasted women are higher up the social hierarchy.

There aren't enough eye-rolls for this one! Male thinking here, obviously.

Transition was more than a change of clothes and a lesson in make-up. Those trappings were always a means to one end: being perceived to be the opposite sex.
Detransition would reverse that process, and in real life, where sexed bodies matter, I have no wish to do so. I fear a return of the mental health catastrophe that drove me to transition in the first place.
So, I tread an uneasy path: I know I am not a woman, but I recognise that I need to perceive myself as a woman. And for others to perceive me as such.

I agree that being honest about the contradictions, the need of the individual being put ahead of the needs of society, and AGP is valuable.

Realistically society is always going to have a group of people like this but honesty is the first step towards looking at better ways they can feel comfortable in society without demanding that everything is turned around to be based on gender-feels.

It is imo better than having someone arguing they really, literally, are a woman because they live as a woman and a woman can mean anything you like. DH type people at least state it's about being female. Not that that means I agree with them about anything else. Interesting to see how the TRAs treat them.

And I realised DH is not an ally. Not truly. DH wants the position that suits him. Wants the special status of being the ‘accepted’ type of ‘transwoman.’

This, but again I think it's useful to have the contrast with the TRA pomo type out in the open.

Ah yes! I remember that. Yes you're right, context is everything.

Several years after I wrote that, when this forum was being targeted, I was asked to rewrite it by HQ and leave out the bits that the monitors found offensive.

which I did. It was my first lesson in censorship. I managed to keep the gist though.

I am not for a moment saying that Hayton is nice, or right. I chatted to them briefly outside the Linda Bellos trial and had no doubt they were male. And attention seeking. I can buy manipulative. AGP is a fetish, which in itself suggests selfishness, and one which is driving people towards something which is not generally accepted by society.

We can't have a proper societal debate until we can speak clearly, with proper language. Hayton's contribution is a useful step to acknowledging an AGP fetish as a driver. They are accepting that their journey over the past 10 years took a wrong turn early on, influenced by false/unproven promises from the trans lobby. This has to be useful, and hopefully more honesty will allow younger AGP men greater self understanding and the ability to face their issues in an open rather than clandestine way. (Grayson Perry, married to a psychologist, might be an example.)

I don't think either Hayton or Jenner (who the Mail also gave space to earlier in the week) have finished their journeys. Both testimonies are useful as they start to question the basic premise of the trans lobby that people can be "born in the wrong body".

Yes male thinking, but a little bizarre in a middle-aged man, who's been married, had children, and taught in a school!

To remain so ignorant of the lives of real women takes some doing.

What I would actually be interested in knowing from DH, is whether being perceived as a woman inspired any genuine flicker of empathy with women and what they live with because of their bodies and gender (as in what they are assumed by others to be like because they are female).

Did any empathy lodge in their brain, or did it all get handwaved away by the knowledge they are actually male so it doesn't really apply to themself?

I understand what you're saying, and why you're saying it, too. I felt similar about Miranda Yardley, quite early on.

It's just that personally, I have changed my mind.

Anything that an AGP has to say about their AGP will not be honest. It's my opinion that Debbie's wife would have a far more sincere account of Debbie's journey than Debbie.

I'm not really sure what hayton is advocating for?

If he thinks the combination of his AGP and the medical profession caused surgery he regrets, he doesn't seem that angry. He's not speaking out about incorrect diagnosis and surgery.

If he regrets the damage trans ideology on his family, again he doesn't seem angry enough.

All i hear him say is that agp and doctors caused his transition, and whats done is done, theres no way he can go back to being a man. All the talk of realising he's not a woman but a trans woman, isnt helping anyone apart from hayton.

He's pushing the idea that he's not a man, but a trans woman, knowing the world sees everyone as men and non men.

Ah yes! I remember that. Yes you're right, context is everything.

And, iirc, all this was before women started going public about what was happening to them in the workplace. And before we started raising money to fund tribunals and cases.

(My usual resentment at the pang of reminiscence I have for so many names on that thread and so many other deleted threads who were endlessly disciplined or banned in the years of the Heavy Mod.)

And, iirc, all this was before women started going public about what was happening to them in the workplace. And before we started raising money to fund tribunals and cases.

yes, it was. And when I see those old names crop up I get a pang too. Their contribution was so valuable.

Reading Debbie Hayton was one of the reasons I ended up on this board, so I do retain some good will, even while acknowledging that there's probably some manipulation going on too.
And I thought this was sad: '
''If I had known in 2012 what I know now, would I have transitioned? The answer is no."

However these days I reserve most of my sympathy for Hayton's wife, Stephanie and their children. Maybe they should write their own book - I'd buy that.

I'm not really sure what hayton is advocating for?

I think for people to recognise how hard it is for DH living with these unique contradictions, and everyone else going through similar should also realise they're aren't really a woman either, but hey ho, DH need to still be treated as a woman, so everyone needs to do that because it's hard for DH.