Thank you: Debbie Hayton in the Mail

[Needmoresleep]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13011839/I-went-agonising-operation-thought-woman-finally-make-happy-devastating-revelation.html

Debbie in her ‘Trans women are men. Get over it!’ T-shirt

This photo caption struck me. Debbie Hayton is still expecting us all to refer to “her", and would still like to be perceived as a woman, even though recognising the fact that "she" is a man. So I appreciate the degree of honesty, but there is still a very significant degree of pretence, and still a demand to be able to live a life that is at best confusing for everyone else. And a degree of forcing everyone else to participate a tiny little bit in … a fetish we do not share.

I don’t think Hayton is unusual in being somewhat inconsistent. I certainly share that very common human characteristic. I applaud Hayton for standing up against some of the trans ideology, but I don’t applaud Hayton for still pushing a demonstrably incoherent viewpoint which remains unclear regarding women’s boundaries, including the long-suffering wife in the picture.

Blerg

Over the years He's managed to carve out quite a niche himself hasnt he?

he cares not a jot for women & girls he's yet another man pushing himself forward & getting his AGP thrills on the way.

One day his wife &/or children will write an article & it will read just like the one written by Jan Morris's daughter.

No thank you.

It's good to see this article in the press as a way of getting autogynophilia (hope I can use that word without getting a deletion) more out in to the open.

However, what I'm most interested in is what Debbie will do in the discussions about the government guidance for Gender Questioning Children. Debbie is a teacher and has a seat at the table when it comes to influence. Debbie has already been influencial in relation to the current school policies that teach gender identity (under the existing statutory DfE guidance) and enable children to self-identify in to a toilet of their preference. Has anyone seen Debbie's response to the current draft guidance that is out for consultation? Whilst I do believe there is value in what Debbie speaks about publicly, owing to Debbie's position as a TW, there is far more value in understanding Debbie's thoughts and role in the development of future guidance.

Debbie is in a rather unique position of influence here, where the right thing to do is to put in safeguarding which protects all children from the impacts of the very same paraphilia that Debbie talks about having, as well as protecting the vulnerable children who are at direct risk of harm by social transition followed by a medicalised pathway.

I think the fact this book has been published is a good thing overall. Hopefully it will get more people talking about the fact that autogynephilia is the drive behind men identifying as trans in a large number of cases.

In the article he says, "Forums for transitioners were one click away from highly sexualised websites that peddled transvestite porn. I immersed myself in this community and soaked up the group-think. No longer did I yearn to be the opposite sex; I thought I really was the opposite sex... Not surprisingly, I became more and more mentally unwell."

I wonder if he will ever reach a point where he apologises to his wife and children for everything he put them through, when he could have just stepped away from the sissy porn?

I imagine that most people who interview him about this book will be all kindness and sympathy for him.

What I'd like to see is them being kind and sympathetic to his wife. I'd like to see some interviewers being kind and brave enough to ask him some tough questions about how his paraphilia has affected her and their children.

There's a growing movement in understanding AGP. Genspect seems to be pivoting there too.

Im not sure how it helps? Is it something that is needs to be fully deconstructed to achieve womens rights and child safeguarding?

I just see it as going round in circles. The daily mail has always featured men in womens clothes posing with their wives, the only thing thats changed is the narrative around it.

There's been a massive push to sanitise the entire thing as being 'born in the wrong body.' And to create 'trans children' to justify adult fetishes.

And, of course, the civil rights aspect. People are going to be pretty fucked off when they learn that the government has legislated to give certain men civil rights to enact their fetish in public.

so I do think that it needs to be publicised.

I just don't think that Debbie Hayton is the person to do it.

You'd learned a lot more about what the fetish means from the women who are married to men who have it. Or even from men who aren't trying to sanitise it in order to make a living.

What I hope is that we can get to a stage where it's acknowledged as a paraphilia that escalates and can lead to an overwhelming desire for mutilating surgeries.

And that maybe it would be a good thing for boys and men with the nascent form of the paraphilia to be aware of the risks of porn/internet obsession, and to seek help.

And that maybe just treating it as a harmless manifestation of diversity isn't really kind, and it would be a public good to have robust research into possible therapeutic treatments (and that these are not conversion therapy).

Debbie Hayton is still expecting us all to refer to “her", and would still like to be perceived as a woman, even though recognising the fact that "she" is a man.

Yes.

Which at one time I would have (kindly) indulged.

Now I'm afraid it's a case of no, I'm not playing that game with you. It may make you feel nice, in a range of ways some of which I really do not want to know about. But I am not enabling you, or participating in my own oppression and subordination for you thanks. Not your servicehuman. Not your therapist. Not your mum.

"Pretty soon after, I abandoned my faith in gender identity. I also concluded that the minds of those organisations that promoted it — such as Stonewall, the gay and lesbian charity that had recently become ‘trans-inclusive’ — had (in the words of a fellow activist) become ‘so open, your brains have fallen out’."

He is likening himself to Magdalen Berns? Calling her his fellow activist?
What an ego.
Sorry, Magdalen, RIP.

I've no idea why part of that text was struck-through! Non-intentional.

See, appalling yes, but also, I believe completely deliberate.

That's the boundary pushing, right there.

Hayton knows that Magdalen Berns is something of a folk hero to many gender critical women. He also knows, as do we, that she would be nothing but scathing towards him.

And using her to further his burgeoning media career would go down like a cup of cold sick with women who see through him, whilst hoping that quoting her would burnish his own credentials.

There's a growing movement in understanding AGP. Genspect seems to be pivoting there too.

Yes. We seem to be in the very early stages of a move to increase public awareness. I found it interesting that Stella O'Malley talked about it being similar to the 80s awakening about paedophilia in the conversation with Benjamin Boyce and KJK. I was a child at the time but it's easy to imagine how difficult it will have been to get the message across that it's not all men, it's some men. And yes, some women too but fewer than the men. And because we can't examine the contents of everyone's brain to see if they are a paedophile, we need safeguarding in place that shuts down any loophole. Especially for those who want to work with children. All of this begins with raising awareness that it's actually a thing that we need to understand and take action against it.

I just don't think that Debbie Hayton is the person to do it.

You'd learned a lot more about what the fetish means from the women who are married to men who have it. Or even from men who aren't trying to sanitise it in order to make a living.

Sadly history has proven time and again that women are listened to retrospectively. I watched a very good YouTube "documentary" on the Radium Girls (the factory workers in the US who suffered and died from radiation poisoning painting the dials on watches) with my children the other day. It was very chilling how it took the death of a man at the radium lab to create the pivot in the court case that the women eventually won. Although I would much prefer it if it weren't the case that it "needs a man to speak up", I'm not going to be focusing that much on how the message breaks through. However, I'm VERY clear that I don't want it coming with undue influence in how it is then mitigated - this is the important bit.

However, I'm VERY clear that I don't want it coming with undue influence in how it is then mitigated - this is the important bit.

quite.

I agree that women are not listened to and it will take a man.

But not a man who has it!

And in whose interests it is to play it down and sanitise it.

And using her to further his burgeoning media career would go down like a cup of cold sick with women who see through him, whilst hoping that quoting her would burnish his own credentials.

That was exactly my reaction. Repulse and anger.

Or who feels that he is somehow a rational and measured voice with the authority to speak on behalf of what women should have and do and be.

The thread discussions here with him included a great deal of head patting and quite staggering amounts of paternalist superiority.

Mine too. He knows she would be so fucked off with that.

And he knows we are.

But we're not the people he's trying to impress in order to sell his book.

The "mind is so open their brains have fallen out" has been popular since at least the 90s, so I wouldn't have attributed it to any one person.

😮

I'd never heard it before Magdalen Berns. And it's a great saying (albeit probably a bit hackneyed now).

The point is him capitalising on both it and her as a means of upping his cred.

Someone else has said that the mail often provide clothes for these photo shoots, including shoes. So it could be that.

Probably - there is a lot of colour coordination going on there. I wouldn't be surprised if the people who set up these photos have entire wardrobes available, along with pins and stuff to make it look like it fits. Shoes are probably harder to fix.

Other posters have expressed my thoughts on this much better than I can.

I think a picture is worth a thousand words. The 'now' photograph of him sitting so much taller above his wife, his 'protective' arm circling her shoulder also containing her. Her hand clenched into a semi-fist. And his shoes on her feet.

This is just the latest chapter in his Big Book of MEEEE and I'm sure it's a lucrative one. I'm glad it speaks about this fetish but I don't feel the pity for him that he clearly seeks. I reserve that for his wife and family.

Seconding everyone who mentions that the DM often lends clothes for photoshoots. I wouldn't read much into the shoes or the styling. (If nothing else, I suspect DH would have preferred a mini-skirt judging by some public appearances.)

I thought the same. She looks so worn down imho; fairly joyless and just a husk left. I’m sure there is a term for a woman who has been left like this due to living with certain types of men.

I wonder if she will ever recover herself? I hope she does. I suspect she would first have to have some sort of respite from the cause of the stress, and then a programme of rehabilitation of some kind.

But not a man who has it!

And in whose interests it is to play it down and sanitise it.

That all depends on how Debbie behaves, what Debbie pushes for and how this is handled.
As a parallel WRT someone with a paraphilia having influence and recognition, Jimmy Saville was knighted and high up in several places (BBC, Broadmoor, Stoke Mandeville) as a result of adults who should have known better either not recognising what was happening or recognising it and not doing anything to mitigate it.
I'm interested in hearing Debbie speak. It adds a nuance to the public discourse that is best being out in the open than driven underground. However, it is imperative that this nuance is handled with strong guardrails. If Debbie wants recognition, this can be achieved without it resulting in harm as long as it's handled well. While known patterns about the dangers of working with people with paraphilias are incredibly important, we don't have a way of looking in Debbie's brain to see specifically what's most important to Debbie in the balance of recognition and gratification. This needs someone with Kemi Badenoch's level of understanding and mandate keeping a very close eye on it all. Whilst the numbers of women (rightly) pointing out the dangers is important, it will be managed, in the places where it matters, as "hateful noise" unless someone is looking at the bigger picture.